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Nichijew
You know what is a zenchishiki?

Hi Nichijew, yes I do. I will also agree with you that sg is akuchishiki. Back in my day in the practice, we actually studied the gosho 1st and not Ikeda's drivel. Study Dept., the whole nine yards. It's interesting history and good literature for me, but that's about where it stops for me, too.

*****

Findingmywaytoday, learning not to ignore and live with doubt, IMO, is the key. We all have to "find our own way", the one that is right for us. Listening to that doubt, is the first step.

Question for all old time ex-members: Does anybody remember the "We Love America" rally in Washington D.C in the early 80's.? Was it part of a bigger mainstream (non nsa) event being held at the same time? Huge parade with American flags, flags, flags and more flags. Massive, EPIC disorganization, too. What year and month was it and what exactly was it?

I keep going through parts of this huge thread and when I find something that I'd like to comment on, I add my thoughts.

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Rothaus
I meant that in regard to children of young age, I suspect that in such a case that brainwashing is done by the parents, as in my experience young children were always showed into a back room with some YMD/YWD doing the baby sitting,
Sorry if I came accross wrong.
Brain washing on adults? No doubts yes. I joined as a teenager not as I child - so thats waht I want to learn more about by those who were very young when beien confronted with SGI.

I remember being brainwashed as early as the jr. pioneers. I can still recite things from memory that were drilled into me from that time. As an adult, it's like a nice parlor show trick now, but it's still there and ready for use if I choose to.

Brain washing kids? Absolutely, they did. It was just a stepping stone to the next "division" where the brainwashing was adjusted accordingly.

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Hitch
Question for all old time ex-members: Does anybody remember the "We Love America" rally in Washington D.C in the early 80's.? Was it part of a bigger mainstream (non nsa) event being held at the same time? Huge parade with American flags, flags, flags and more flags. Massive, EPIC disorganization, too. What year and month was it and what exactly was it?

Hitch....I believe it happened in 1982. The month escapes me at the moment. That was also where Tina Turner made her NSA performing debut at a large-scale event.

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Findingmywaytoday
I'm still struggling. Forgive me, but I had returned to meetings because I didn't know what else to do. I am really bothered by the mentor and sensei talk. Someone told me that many people don't President Ikeda as their mentor until they have been in the organization for a while. Upon first hearing this, I thought it was because they weren't smart enough to understand, but then I realized it is more about brainwashing perhaps.

At another meeting, some women just returned from Japan. They were asked by people if they met Sensei. They said, no, but saw sensei in people's hearts. It was also expressed by another women that we are all so fortunate to live on the planet at the same time as this man. I feel sick just thinking about this.

Finally, some other women said that when they went to FNCC, they felt Sensei's heart there. There just seems to be something wrong with this picture for me. I am not sure what to do. I felt this sense of belonging by being in the SGI. I also felt what I thought was happiness, but I had felt that happiness before I ever joined. It just is really hard to leave. Where will I find those things? I am so used to believing that I can solve any problem through chanting. I wish I could remember how I solved problems before.

Thanks for listening.

Oh Findingmyway, I really feel for you and for the dilemma you find yourself faced with.

it is true that chanting with other people is exhilarating and the sense of social support and companionship one can experience in the SGI can be difficult to leave behind. It is a very efficient social network.

It wasn't too hard for me in the end because I never "believed" all that mentor/disciple stuff. In fact I always found it creepy, so when I discovered more and more facts about what a fraud Ick-eda was, with his Narcisisstic accumulating of spurious honours, it became impossible to attend meetings where all people wanted to do was admire and quote from the guy. It just made me feel ill! Actually, if SGI had not placed so much importance on Ikeda, I'd probably still be a member, working away for them. But seeing what a fake this guy was, that we were all meant to 'be of one heart' with, just brought the whole house of cards tumbling down. He is one of the last people on earth that I'd want to be like!

I still chant with some (real) friends I made in SGI, a couple of whom have left for similar reasons to me (we think it is a Japanese cult, a personality cult, not Buddhism).

If you can still enjoy attending meetings, there is no reason for you to stop really, as long as you are getting something positive out of it. However if you can't comfortably live with being a disciple of President Ikeda, SGI may not be for you, because nowadays that seems to be all it is about.

As I found, there is a lot of support out there for those of us who wish to practice Nichiren Buddhism, either independently or with other sects. Don't be fooled into thinking that SGI is the only show in town and don't believe that old SGI chestnut that you can't practice on your own. It is much easier to do now, with so much support and study material available on the www. I'm deeply grateful to all the help I have had from connecting with websites set-up to support independent practice. And it is wonderful not to have the burden of living with so much cognitive dissonance, which is what I had to do as a (lowly) leader in SGI! I certainly began to feel real happiness after I left because I'm not so conflicted. And I really love having a few real friends, rather than a lot of 'SGI friends'. I am practicing independently at the moment - I have been put off joining any sect after my experience with NSA/SGI.

Either way, Findingmyway, I wish you well in discovering what is right for you. Keep us posted!

Hitch,

I just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying your comments as you work your way through this epic thread. Your extensive experience of SGI brings a fresh and valuable aspect to the thread. It took me ages to read through the three hundred and more pages and I'd forgotten a lot of the detail, so your quotes and observations are really welcome.

Thank you,
Simplify

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Hitch
Question for all old time ex-members: Does anybody remember the "We Love America" rally in Washington D.C in the early 80's.? Was it part of a bigger mainstream (non nsa) event being held at the same time? Huge parade with American flags, flags, flags and more flags. Massive, EPIC disorganization, too. What year and month was it and what exactly was it?

I was out of the country in 1982. The three big conventions I went to were Boston [year?] with the giant picture of Ikeda next to Washington and Ben Franklin, New York 1976, and Chicago [year?]. In retrospect a waste of time and despite the giant parade and non-stop activities, very few new people joined. You can take the men and women of SGI out of Japan but not Japan out of the SGI leaders. Very militaristic and cultlike activities. Lots of walkie talkies, marching, standing in the sun and under the stars, control center, people movements, "protecting" leaders, chanting to pictures of Ikeda, working up to a hundred hours a week for a month or more in advance, costumes, brass band, fireworks, cheap food, little sleep, rally after rally....

buku

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Findingmywaytoday
I'm still struggling. Forgive me, but I had returned to meetings because I didn't know what else to do. I am really bothered by the mentor and sensei talk. Someone told me that many people don't President Ikeda as their mentor until they have been in the organization for a while. Upon first hearing this, I thought it was because they weren't smart enough to understand, but then I realized it is more about brainwashing perhaps.

At another meeting, some women just returned from Japan. They were asked by people if they met Sensei. They said, no, but saw sensei in people's hearts. It was also expressed by another women that we are all so fortunate to live on the planet at the same time as this man. I feel sick just thinking about this.

Finally, some other women said that when they went to FNCC, they felt Sensei's heart there. There just seems to be something wrong with this picture for me. I am not sure what to do. I felt this sense of belonging by being in the SGI. I also felt what I thought was happiness, but I had felt that happiness before I ever joined. It just is really hard to leave. Where will I find those things? I am so used to believing that I can solve any problem through chanting. I wish I could remember how I solved problems before.

Thanks for listening.

Just a little advice disguised as an experience...

I know exactly where you are coming from. I have left the SGI reservation a year ago and for the first few months I did the classic bargaining with my emotions and trying to rationalize of why I should stay. I've said to myself once, that's just BS that goes on in Japan, it doesn't have any effect on what goes on down on my side of the Earth. But as your comments demonstrates, it can't be done without losing your soul.

A few months after I made the determination to never set foot in the SGI center again, I find myself attending a memorial service for a recent YD convert who had unexpectedly passed away from illness. I went to go pay my respects. The entire service was chalk filled with PI quotations and what was more appalling was that the YMD leader had to make the damn thing about him by announcing that he won some stupid award and dedicated it to Sensei. When it finally was about him, they mentioned that he was chanting for a Lexus. I found it truly appalling and as you may have guessed, it served only as vindication that I had made the right decision. There is no reconciliation with the SGI knowing with what you already know.

@Findingmywaytoday, you too in time will come to the conclusion that you have made the right decision.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2012 07:55AM by KR.

Thank you Shavoy. I was there, but it is all a blur to me. Until you just mentioned it, I had no memory of Tina Turner. Now, I do recall a huge stage and her performing. That trip was a horrible experience for me; I also remember one of the buses breaking down on a busy, traffic jammed D.C. freeway or highway. Utter chaos from beginning to end.

Simplify, thank you, too. I didn't know that there were other people out there who had been thru what I'd been thru, until I found this mb. I had no choice but to grow up in this cult. I also had to literally fight my way out of it. 2-3 phases for me: 1) pre-cult time = doesn't exist (I was born into it) / 2) cult time = misery, fear, mind games, ritual, mindless activities & practices, psycho people, manipulation, authority / 3) post-cult time = initially confusion, solitary searching and self-education, "finding my way" ;-), a new worldview, happiness, no more fear or manipulation, freedom of choice and self-determination.

This brings me to the subject of a fascinating post by Anticult:

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The Anticult
It seems that basically all cults try to pathologize "anger" for misdeeds done by the cult to people.
But its perfectly natural and healthy to be upset about lies told, or wrong's done, or if a person has been used and deceived.

One theory puts forward 3 ideas about anger..

Passivity------------Assertiveness------------Aggressiveness

Most folks in culty groups seem to be too far to the passive side, regarding the cults manipulation.
But being full of rage might be too far too the rage side.

The healthiest is strong assertiveness, with strong boundaries. Cults hate those people!
They try to crush that so-called "Ego", when in fact its healthy.

But after getting duped, lied to, deceived, used, tricked, its perfectly natural to get angry, in a healthy way.
Every culty group tries to make "anger" wrong, except when its directed at the cults "enemies"...then it is Righteousness.
;-)

I'd say this theory is correct. I was nothing but passive for most of my time in the cult. Just doing what I was told to do - without question. The more passive you are, the more extreme manipulation you are funneled thru. Getting older, thinking for myself and questioning, I slowly became more assertive in my push back and resistance. The culties absolutely hate the "ego" and intellect - it's a huge threat to their control. Aggressiveness and anger allowed me to fight my way to that last "exit" door and critical thinking (which cannot be crushed) allowed me to finally kick it down, walk out and away.

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Nichijew
I was out of the country in 1982. The three big conventions I went to were Boston [year?] with the giant picture of Ikeda next to Washington and Ben Franklin, New York 1976, and Chicago [year?].

I remember some of those. The subliminal "father" message was so bizarre and blatant.

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Nichijew
In retrospect a waste of time and despite the giant parade and non-stop activities, very few new people joined. You can take the men and women of SGI out of Japan but not Japan out of the SGI leaders. Very militaristic and cultlike activities. Lots of walkie talkies, marching, standing in the sun and under the stars, control center, people movements, "protecting" leaders, chanting to pictures of Ikeda, working up to a hundred hours a week for a month or more in advance, costumes, brass band, fireworks, cheap food, little sleep, rally after rally....

buku

EXTREMELY authoritarian and militaristic. And during the actual events, being put into cheap hotels, 3-4 people to a room with only two beds. I even remember some Men's Div. members bailing at that point (and their wives excoriating them for their onshitsu-ing) and driving home. I practically begged one whom I knew to please take me with him, but of course he couldn't, lest he suffer the WD group gaggle wrath later. One fellow turned on his heels, waved his wife away and left her speaking to the wind about slander. Hilarious stuff now that I look back, but definitely not at the time.

(PS - Btw, Nichijew, it's still going on, it's just been moved across the pond to another continent [www.youtube.com].)

And finally, here's a big bulls-eye:

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wayfarerfree
A lot of people, age 30+, dont go through the Youth Division process first, either.
This is a different kettle of fish altogether, and much more intense.
If all members were driven by the hyped up carrot-and-self-flagelation-stick in the same way Youth Div. are, I'm sure it would be considerably less appealling. Not to say that the politics of those outside YD isnt controlling, but you simply dont get exposed to the full brunt of what it really means to be in SGI at first.

Absolutely, 100% correct. It's an entirely different world from the Men's & Women's Div. and you are dealing with a cohort of individuals who are essentially tabulae rasae, very impressionable and easily manipulated. Boy, did they ever take advantage of that at times, too.

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wayfarerfree
The thing is though, is that even though the leaders would refute any allegations of cult-like activity (with a straight face - lol!), they so obviously make huge efforts to not show all aspects of SGI to newcomers and people who have come to their first ever meeting.
And why exactly is this, then.....?
Hmmm.

Again, exactly right. Hmmm, I wonder why, indeed. I also noticed that when parents/adults returned to pick you up, the yelling stopped, the minds games slowly dissolved away and the authority was ratcheted down several notches . . . . . . but just until the next time, whereupon it would all start over again. Some of these people knew exactly what they were doing. Isn't that right, Ethan Gelbaum (current Vice General Director).

The organization is a wolf in peaceful sheep's clothing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2012 07:58AM by Hitch.

Anticult, the more I read your posts on this thread, the more I realize that you got this cult wrapped up pretty good in your summations.

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The Anticult
Humans can believe almost anything, they can believe there are aliens living in golden cities beneath the earth, some sects believe that. So the SGI-Karma stuff is pretty tame compared to some crazy belief systems.

On the surface it's pretty tame and generic, but there are some bizarre aspects to it, too (e.g., The daishonin's tooth is a closely guarded relic in tune with the catholic church's morbid relics obsession. There is also legend associated with it, like it still retaining living flesh, centuries later, that doesn't die, etc.).

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The Anticult
As far as "mentor" that is SGI Newspeak.
SGI-USA propagandists chose the "mentor" word, as its trendy in business in the West now, and sounds inoffensive.
But its not Mentor/Colleague.
Its Mentor/Disciple.

Again, Disciple is chose carefully, as that is from the bible for most folks. A disciple is a religious FOLLOWER who follows orders.

but its not really "mentor".
Its MASTER.
MASTER/Disciple.

That is what SGI is really selling. You do worship a "Master".
The real concept SGI is selling is...

Master/Slave.
Ikeda is the Master, and you follow orders and work for free.
Of course that is the classical cultic power-relationship, the Master totally dominates and controls you, your mind, and your life.

So SGI constantly doing that, is simply cultic Master/slave cultic brainwashing, that is all it is.

It was always MASTER during my time in the practice. It was only changed later to the more pc and neutral term "mentor" to distance it from the more pejorative connotations and baggage of the term "master" (i.e., the term wasn't flying too well to the Western mindset). The longer sg is around, the more they like to rewrite history.

MASTER & SLAVE sums it up perfectly. A mental master and a physical slave is the sg cult in a nutshell. Sometimes I just want to tell people, "Stand up, get up off your knees and take control of your own life."