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Rothaus
@ commongirl

gosh it makes me so angry what you just wrote. talk to a leader? just read what tsukimoto said - a leader who may be an ex-convict that some SGI people put trust in? And if it woks out wrong? S..t happens?

thats one of the big flaws of SGI, people giving out "guidance" on urgent issues that they have by no means been trained for.

How many dsifunctional families I have seen in SGI. Not that this not the case outside of SGI, but the fact that so called "leaders" made things even worse.

"Just hang on in its a matter of your faith. Stay by your husband, be strong, show actual proof" --- god all mighty these people should get charged!!!

All the "leaders" I remember were idiots, plain and simple. Every single one of them. In keeping with the theme of my post before this, the only thing I noticed was that the higher up the leader, the better BS'er they were (better at quoting the gosho, better at stacking the decks, better at laying on the guilt trips, better at the subliminal suggestions, etc.). I've always found it absurd and incomprehensible that grown adults would go get "guidance" on things that "leaders" know absolutely nothing about. *Why would you go and share personal details, spilling your guts about your most intimate problems, to a complete stranger or at best or an occasional acquaintance? The entire concept is bizarre to me. (As I've mentioned before, too, a lot of the Japanese WD members REALLY, REALLY LOVED this aspect of the practice. Like a front row seat to a glorified gossip columnist convention. They'd also talk about it and bring it up for months afterwards, too. Like anticipating and buying an advance ticket for the next and upcoming sequel in the soap opera drama movie of life to follow.)

(Btw, my *question is a rhetorical one. I know why people do it, I've just never subscribed to that kind of thinking.)

And as you state, this was not fantasy. These were real people with some real and serious problems. And then there's a leader BS'ing them. Like I said, I don't know how some of these people live with themselves. I have no respect for any of the "leaders" that I remember. None.

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Nichijew
Hi Hitch. All those who ascribe to an ends justify the means worldview have no compunction about lying, deceiving, backstabbing, manipulating. It is greed and animality that propels such men [and women]. They don't really believe in the Law of cause and effect that they purport to embrace, they couldn't. Since what goes around does indeed come around, they are in for a very very hard time.

Nichijew

I hope you are right Nichijew. Some of them deserve cosmic retribution (so to speak), any way you slice it.

Even as a young boy/man, I remember wondering why I had to go to meetings to memorize gosho quotes, get fear instilled into me (cause and effect, slander, etc.) and also get yelled at (for not playing the right note, marching incorrectly, not subscribing to your own copy of the publications, not doing (enough) shakubuku, not giving (enough) zaimu, not doing more activities, not having ikeda/daishonin more ingrained into your life and heart, and on and on).

Not really much different that this clip [www.youtube.com], "Our firm belief is, there are two kinds of people in this world, people who practice and people who don't. Therefore, work for a world where there is only one kind of person, those who practice, for Cousin Rufus." Mental roto-rooter-ing.

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Hitch
Even as a young boy/man, I remember wondering why I had to go to meetings to memorize gosho quotes, get fear instilled into me (cause and effect, slander, etc.) and also get yelled at (for not playing the right note, marching incorrectly, not subscribing to your own copy of the publications, not doing (enough) shakubuku, not giving (enough) zaimu, not doing more activities, not having ikeda/daishonin more ingrained into your life and heart, and on and on).

Education of children is quite a quandry isn't it? - I recall all the time I was in primary school and those teachers just kept on shoving things at me *they* felt I needed to know. Writing, civics, geography, mathematics, etc. It was horrible! All I wanted to do was just to play and they *forced* me to sit for 8 hours a day in school. Looking back now, a lot of the things I was taught did come in handy, and admittedly, I'm a better person for it and such. But who the heck were they to try and *force* their ideas on me, just a little kid! All these ideas about education and such. People should just be allowed to run wild and nobody has the right to *force* them to be educated and civilized. Oops! Guess I went a little overboard here begging the case, but the bottom line is, no matter what the belief system (SGI, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Zorasterism, The church of Bob, whatever) children will need to be "trained" and the teachers have only certain tools to do it. Were it like in the Matrix where a behavior could be downloaded... [hops off soapbox].

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Hitch
All the "leaders" I remember were idiots, plain and simple. Every single one of them. In keeping with the theme of my post before this, the only thing I noticed was that the higher up the leader, the better BS'er they were (better at quoting the gosho, better at stacking the decks, better at laying on the guilt trips, better at the subliminal suggestions, etc.). I've always found it absurd and incomprehensible that grown adults would go get "guidance" on things that "leaders" know absolutely nothing about

Hmmm, pretty strong stuff there, and I would probably agree with you except for two things.

1) I was a leader and I think I wasn't too big of a Jerk :)
2) Since the leadership role is also a cross section of the membership, given the statistical bell curve, there had to be a couple more good leaders in there too.

I daresay that many of the people reading this group also at one level or another were participants in the leadership, and of course, it is what it is. Many (like me) stayed with it until the handwriting was on the wall and threw in the towel. In all forms of leadership, you do the best with what you have and try to keep a pure heart throughout. For the most part, the other leaders I worked with *tried* to do what they believed was right however when the system is being twisted, you end up getting twisted with it.

Lots of time spent chanting for members in need and lots of hours invested for what was believed to be "the right thing". Of course, when the end result is less than satisfactory, a true leader takes the blame as well (which is why I admit I wasn't too big of a Jerk, but I had my moments :) ) But let's not throw the baby away with the washwater...


Wakatta1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2012 08:41AM by wakatta1.

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wakatta1
Education of children is quite a quandry isn't it? - I recall all the time I was in primary school and those teachers just kept on shoving things at me *they* felt I needed to know. Writing, civics, geography, mathematics, etc. It was horrible! All I wanted to do was just to play and they *forced* me to sit for 8 hours a day in school. Looking back now, a lot of the things I was taught did come in handy, and admittedly, I'm a better person for it and such. But who the heck were they to try and *force* their ideas on me, just a little kid! All these ideas about education and such. People should just be allowed to run wild and nobody has the right to *force* them to be educated and civilized. Oops! Guess I went a little overboard here begging the case, but the bottom line is, no matter what the belief system (SGI, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Zorasterism, The church of Bob, whatever) children will need to be "trained" and the teachers have only certain tools to do it. Were it like in the Matrix where a behavior could be downloaded... [hops off soapbox].

Compulsory education for children is absolutely necessary, but not compulsory religious/cult education. The latter has no place in the school system just as alchemy, astrology, flat earth or stork theory don't. Education is not the problem, it's the kind of education and how it is done.

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wakatta1
Hmmm, pretty strong stuff there, and I would probably agree with you except for two things.

1) I was a leader and I think I wasn't too big of a Jerk :)
2) Since the leadership role is also a cross section of the membership, given the statistical bell curve, there had to be a couple more good leaders in there too.

I'll admit, I can be harsh, but I don't want to be misunderstood, though.

Re:

1) But you're not still in it. Nor are you an ex-leader that I actually met (at least I don't think so).
2) I honestly don't remember a single one and I tried pretty hard to think of even a single exception. Can't come up with one. Sure, some had their hearts in the right place, but that doesn't always make it right.

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wakatta1
I daresay that many of the people reading this group also at one level or another were participants in the leadership, and of course, it is what it is. Many (like me) stayed with it until the handwriting was on the wall and threw in the towel. In all forms of leadership, you do the best with what you have and try to keep a pure heart throughout. For the most part, the other leaders I worked with *tried* to do what they believed was right however when the system is being twisted, you end up getting twisted with it.

Again, "were" participants in the leadership is the key distinction for me. As I mentioned before, I was thrust into a youth leadership position. Looking back, I felt like I was an idiot too for standing up in front of other youth and BS'ing them. In fact, because I felt like an idiot doing it, I immediately stopped. A lot of the people who yelled at the youth had a pure heart, too, and believed it to be right, no doubt. One of the key factors that pushed me out of the religion was the behavior of some of the "leaders" (all divisions, but the youth div. was by far the worst).

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wakatta1
Lots of time spent chanting for members in need and lots of hours invested for what was believed to be "the right thing". Of course, when the end result is less than satisfactory, a true leader takes the blame as well (which is why I admit I wasn't too big of a Jerk, but I had my moments :) ) But let's not throw the baby away with the washwater...

Organized religion and superstition is one dead baby (for me) that I don't think is healthy, nor something to be kept around. Is there really even a "baby" to throw out? Not for me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2012 09:55AM by Hitch.

Hi KR. I've helped convince people to leave the SGI. One, I spoke to online for almost 5 years but I really don't know how much I actually contributed or if it was solely due to his own awakening. The other several people thanked me for helping to open their eyes to the true nature of SGI. I can't even remember who they all were, I've been doing this for so long. Online we are read by hundreds if not thousands of people so we may never know to whom we have made an impact. Sometimes too, it's just planting a single seed of doubt, like two ships passing in the night or a distant lighthouse warning of the shoals ahead.

Nichijew

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Nichijew
Hi KR. I've helped convince people to leave the SGI. One, I spoke to online for almost 5 years but I really don't know how much I actually contributed or if it was solely due to his own awakening. The other several people thanked me for helping to open their eyes to the true nature of SGI. I can't even remember who they all were, I've been doing this for so long. Online we are read by hundreds if not thousands of people so we may never know to whom we have made an impact. Sometimes too, it's just planting a single seed of doubt, like two ships passing in the night or a distant lighthouse warning of the shoals ahead.

Nichijew

Nichijew, I never really crawled around on the web too deeply looking into SG/NS stuff, but the more I do, the more I realize that you are indeed all over the place out there. I just came across some of your responses on askhow.com (I think) to Ian Mcilraith from several years ago (again, I think). Quite an interesting read, the conversation put a smile on my face. You pretty much shut him up (I never really cared for him and always thought his guidance was of the garden insipid variety). More power to you.

Some of the recent posts have got me thinking. How many of you gave out "guidance" that you now regret? Or was it all just generic stuff like chant more, challenge yourself more, practice with a sincere heart, etc.? Were there ever times that you felt or knew you were in over your head and declined to give substantive advice to someone who came to you with a serious problem?

I don't want to be misconstrued as picking on everyone else and not myself, so I'll start. I remember a few specific incidents that can be summed up as follows: BS'ing, exaggerating and (perhaps) trying to convince myself. Parroting standard BS that we were all drilled with for the sake of "encouraging" others, making a bigger deal out of a so-called "benefit" than it ever was (which also leads into the next point) and deluding myself to believe that my "experiences" were growing in direct proportion to my practice/faith. There was also pressure to come up with benefits and "experiences." They would say things like - "surely SOMETHING must have happened in your life that you can share and show as actual proof", etc.. Sometimes, when I couldn't come up with anything that I thought was significant enough, they'd even give me suggestions!!!! When I think back, . . . . . yep, I was a fool. Why did I fall for it? Well, I didn't know any better at the time. And coming to realize it was all nonsense, mind games and manipulation was not an overnight thing. It was slow and took some time as little doubts and events slowly continued to pile up onto one another, until a critical mass was reached, mental fission ensued and the cognitive viral fog finally started to clear.

I'm still struggling. Forgive me, but I had returned to meetings because I didn't know what else to do. I am really bothered by the mentor and sensei talk. Someone told me that many people don't President Ikeda as their mentor until they have been in the organization for a while. Upon first hearing this, I thought it was because they weren't smart enough to understand, but then I realized it is more about brainwashing perhaps.

At another meeting, some women just returned from Japan. They were asked by people if they met Sensei. They said, no, but saw sensei in people's hearts. It was also expressed by another women that we are all so fortunate to live on the planet at the same time as this man. I feel sick just thinking about this.

Finally, some other women said that when they went to FNCC, they felt Sensei's heart there. There just seems to be something wrong with this picture for me. I am not sure what to do. I felt this sense of belonging by being in the SGI. I also felt what I thought was happiness, but I had felt that happiness before I ever joined. It just is really hard to leave. Where will I find those things? I am so used to believing that I can solve any problem through chanting. I wish I could remember how I solved problems before.

Thanks for listening.

The problem with SGI leaders is they they come off as if they have attained what they have not. Deluding themselves that they can give guidance to those who have serious existential problems such as AIDS, major depression, impending divorce with custody issues, etc, when they themselves have not overcome anything as serious as hemorrhoids. I would refer my members to these sloths, even those with serious health or social issues, and even though I was a doctor because I always compared myself to Nichiren Daishonin and not Ikeda. I knew that Nichiren knew and I knew next to nothing compared to him. Still, I was taken in by the SGI leaders new age positive thinking. false bravado, and exaggerated sense of self by virtue of their phony relationship to Ikeda.

Lets get real. Who is capable of giving life and death guidance in the Soka Gakkai? Danny Nagashima who not only is lazy but had to have had worse grades than Rick Perry? Ethan Gelbaum? Linda Death Sentence Johnson? I can think of only two men and one of these men the SGI rejects, Shakyamuni Buddha. In a religious sense, only Nichiren Daishonin and Shakyamuni Buddha are capable of giving Buddhist believers guidance. They are supposed to have been the life coaches in the Soka Gakkai, not some two bit clarinet player and Ikeda bum licker. Once again you got me started, Hitch. You know what is a zenchishiki?

Nichijew

Hi Findingmyway. There's nothing wrong with chanting. There is everything wrong with the SGI. Continuing to chant without support is not easy. Can you imagine how Nichiren felt? Keep chanting and stay away from those sick charlatans. In the end, they will hurt you to your very core.

Nichijew