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KR
For anyone who reads this: What would be the most effective method to "shakabuku" someone out of SGI or any other cult?

Well, good luck with that.

Of course it would depend upon the depth of committment or dependency the individual had to SGI. Kind of like convincing someone deep in substance abuse to simply "stop doing that".

The only person who can "Shakubuku" a person out of a cult like SGI would be that individual themselves.

Somehow you'd have to penetrate into the cult mind set and cause them to "doubt" that they have all the answers. Slowly then they will follow the bread crumbs back to reality.

(Yep, speaking from personal experience here...). The more intelligent and committed the person, the tougher it would be to get them to doubt themselves enough to begin reevaluating their beliefs. Many of the people on this board can relate to what I'm saying, it just doesn't happen overnight because the culty "magical thinking" sets up "detour" signs throughout your mind to anything that resembles critical thinking. Usually it takes an external event to get you thinking....

Wakatta1

"Better out than in I always say" -- Shrek (...and others...)

Shavoy - All the "guidance" about getting rid of "slanderous" items in your household or personal possessions also flies in the face of their so-called interfaith tolerance lie. I know very well exactly what you are talking about here. I've seen some of the more kooky gakkai members get psychosomatically ill from just having a christian bible around them. Some of the more extreme members are genuinely mentally ill.

Re: The gakkai HQ in Japan. If you walk around the HQ area in Shinanomachi, Shinjuku, it's common to get funny looks and stares from your average citizen on the streets if you are openly or obviously a gakkai member. The soka-han/gajokai at the gates, entrances and doors are always extremely suspicious of strangers, very stand-offish, strict and untrusting. Even once you are in, they'll still watch you like a hawk. It's almost as if you have to demonstrate that you are a member and in-the-know for them to start to relax and trust you. For those that cannot do that or don't know how to go through the proper motions/rituals/displays, it can be intimidating, uncomfortable, and even fearful. The only way to really avoid any of this is to have an appointment, letter of introduction, an escort from an already well-known local leader and a legitimate reason to even be there. A creepy atmosphere of distrust permeates the air there (and I'd also say the same for many of the big cultural centers/kaikans in the bigger cities of Japan).

KR - There are no easy answers to your question. It depends on the person. A part of the person has to be receptive and open to the idea of questioning and doubting (i.e., a part of them has to want it for themselves). The trigger that gets them to that point is also different for different people (for some, it is a single event, for others it is an accumulation of events). I'd say the starting point would be to focus on the trigger(s). Then, slow reeducation and critical thinking are the only way out. Even then, some people will have doubts, panic attacks and possibly relapses. Whereupon you will have to start over again. Persistence is also important. People who truly *need* the cult and its support mechanisms, however, are going to be the most difficult to get to, maybe even impossible. For those, the *need* to believe overrides all else and, as mentioned above, their door of doubt is completely shut. Unfortunately, they are probably beyond reach.

Just wanted to add a couple more interesting tidbits from the "Interfaith Forum" conference clips (in case some may miss it).

1) In part VIII [www.youtube.com]. All of the participants have been asked to give an answer to the same question. Around the ~ 1:00 mark, the gakkai youth "leader" is called upon, he has a snide smirk on his face as he gets ready to stand up, he then has the nerve to correct the previous speaker (Rabbi Sanford Askelrad) for not standing during his answer. It's done in a humorous way, but I maintain that that is some of the gakkai humiliatory training coming out. He appears to be the youngest person on the panel, yet he has the arrogance to behave in such a way to a fellow religious leader. Askelrad, btw, is sufficiently annoyed to stand up and respond, "All right, are you HAPPY?!? Don't hit me!" For those that have been indoctrinated in the YD, you'll easily recognize this kind of behavior for what it is (the compassionate, strict correction).

My point is, the gakkai youth robot has no common sense, no humility and cannot think enough for himself to know better that it would be more dignified and respectful to NOT do such a thing - especially under these circumstances.

2) I also noticed that in part IX (link posted earlier), at the beginning of his closing remarks, a bit of reflex mannerisms, gestures and words slip out of his mouth . . . . . "and so, um, I really want to challenge every one here .....". Sound familiar to everyone? Does to me. And the way he says, "YOUTH!", the emphasis given in the pronunciation replete with the head going back and the forward body and arm thrust. I find it funny and pathetic. Those gakkai youth mental software downloads are still the same.

Bobze39 - For some reason, I thought you were an Asian-American (getting mixed up with a senior asian leaders' daughter). Danny's "story" doesn't sound like such a big deal to me. If he wants to believe it was some sort of miraculous benefit, more power to him. I think that's just stupid confirmation bias nonsense for the deluded. (Being a man of "faith" is not something that I generally look up to.) Typical primitive magical thinking (kind of like this lady [www.youtube.com], just substitute in nmrk and it's the same mindset.)

At any rate, why don't you try to reapply elsewhere, like another state and then just keep away from any members in the future.

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Hitch
Bobze39 - For some reason, I thought you were an Asian-American (getting mixed up with a senior asian leaders' daughter). Danny's "story" doesn't sound like such a big deal to me. If he wants to believe it was some sort of miraculous benefit, more power to him. I think that's just stupid confirmation bias nonsense for the deluded. (Being a man of "faith" is not something that I generally look up to.) Typical primitive magical thinking (kind of like this lady [www.youtube.com], just substitute in nmrk and it's the same mindset.)

At any rate, why don't you try to reapply elsewhere, like another state and then just keep away from any members in the future.

Well, Hitch, all Russians are partly asians, partly because of location (huge part of the country is located in asia), partly because from 1237 till 1480 Russia was occupied by Mongolo-Tatars. That's why all Russians, even though caucasoids/whites, but also have some mongoloid facial features (wider jaws, eyes little narrower and so on).
As for the lady I got mixed up with, she was not a daughter of an asian leader. She is American, and not asian, she is white/caucasian. But she was a very close friend of SGI-USA leader Danny Nagashima, and she personally knew the cult leader Ikeda.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2012 06:56PM by bobze39.

"Again, we value the sanctity of life but we are going to protect ourselves first" is what the youth the leader at the Interfaith Conference says at the 2:03 mark of the above posted video link.
The youth gestures to Rabbi Askelrad at the beginning of the statement then points to his own chest at the end. Telling gestures with at least 3 aspects.
Obviously refering to the words and beliefs of the previous speaker but offering something more profound.
The youth also makes the distinction between tolerating those others on the outside and looking out for #1, his SGI.
And of course, refering to the previous moment when he valued the sanctity of the rules and his need to correct the disunity of the non- stander, the youth sheepishly makes his stand.

At any rate, I'll continue with my story. At that time I had pretty limited information about SGI in Russia. But I knew that SGI influence in Russia is much much more limited, compare to their influence in US. So, I felt that in my position, being black-listed by SGI, I would be better off in Russia. While in Califonia I talked to some people in LA Friendship Center, and they told me that there are few thousand SGI members in Russia, mostly in Moscow and Saint-Petersburg (compare to 350 thousand SGI members in US). There are no open SGI community centers like in America. Due to the dominance of Orthodox Christian Church in Russian religious scene SGI operates secretly there. There are some properties, owned or rented by SGI, but under the name "Japanese Cultural Centers". So, people mostly gather and chant in private apartments.
After arriving to Russia, I was looking for a job as a music teacher, but also as an English teacher. Pretty soon I figured out that English teaching jobs pay way better, so I drifted toward that area of job market. Many language schools in Russia offer so called corporate teaching. It's a system, where teachers come to companies and teach English to company's employees right in company's offices before or after working hours (or in case of big bosses during working hours).
Of course I was aware that SGI was tracking my move from America to Russia. (Just because I moved to another country, didn't mean that they took me off the list). I knew that they would inform SGI leadership in Russia (probably a Japanese person, but remains incognito) about my arrival. But I also was aware that their resources are much more limited, and it wouldn't be so easy for them to keep me from getting a job. Besides, their old tactics of defaming me wouldn't work so well in Russia. Traditionally, Russians are much more thick-skinned when it comes to defamation campaigns and smear/gossip campaigns. I am not saying that Russians don't like gossip. They like a good gossip just as much as any other nation. What I am saying is the social status damage that results from gossip is much more limited, because Russians don't care about the concept of "reputation" as much. "This kind of thing just doesn't fly here" says Mikhail Baryshnikov character in the movie "White Nights". He was referring to a little bit different thing though (but also connected to the subject of public opinion). So, the type of defamation/gossip campaigns would not stop me from getting a job, if anything, they would only help me, by arousing curiocity.
As I found work in corporate English teaching, my students (or maybe better to say clients) mostly were from middle class. Middle class is pretty recent phenomenon in Russia, but it is already playing important role in cultural and even political life. So I knew that my students were independent-minded, and if approached, wouldn't give in to defamers easily.
Of course, I was also aware that SGI might look for alliances (after all SGI is social organization and looking for alliances is what they do the best). I was a bit concerned that SGI might get some other organizations to participate their stupid gossip/defamation game. But once again, I also knew that even if that was to happen, it wouldn't have such a damaging impact on my social status (due to the reasons I mentioned above). TBC

SGI has been boasting 300,000 members for the longest time. Then it was proven that World Tribune circulation figures ~ 40,000 and we know that many members purchase multiple subscriptions. I think then that, even I, who has not been a member for 16 years, am counted in their "statistics".

Wow. Double Wow. Those videos are so revealing. Good analysis all. A bit on brainwashing and the SGI cult...

When contemplating the diorganized thinking and disordered thought in the SGI, several things come to mind: A nervous breakdown or an acute psychosis. This can be likened to a shortcircuit of the electrical system of a computer or even a toaster oven (because likening the SGI collective and individual leadership to a computer is too flattering). At first, mostly the brain works then mostly it no longer works, and finally it fails completely. Brain functions become disorganized and disordered. Certain ingested drugs can bring on acute psychotic reactions, LSD, STP, and the other hallucinogenics fall into one class and PCP (Phencyclidine) falls into another class (hypnotics). An overdose of PCP makes ones brain and mind so ill that one can not think whatsoever, a process that can be likened to catatonia, the most severe mental abberation..

From their posts, we can see, the SGI leaders are having a nervous breakdown of reason. They might as well be walking back and forth picking mushrooms off the floor [that aren't there]. They are forming meaningless thoughts and thus organizing bizarre and inconsequential actions. This is reflected in their meetings that are more and more centered around Ikeda and the mentor disciple relationship rather than around Buddhism.

Brainwashing too, can cause an acute and even chronic psychotic condition leading to disordered thinking and disorganized thought. According to the DSM 5 guidelines of the American Psychiatric Association under "post traumatic stress disorders'', subheading, ''brainwashing and mental health'' it is stated that brainwashing may lead to acute psychotic reactions mimicking both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. P.E.T. and MRI brain scans have revealed subtle adverse molecular changes in the brains of brainwashed individuals. Brainwashing has thus been proven to alter brain structure and function. However, I am not advocating the SGI leaders and members have a brain scan because reality as it is, obviates the needs for such expensive testing.

A former SGI member wrote:

"All cults, totalitarian organizations (such as Soka Gakkai International) and dictatorial governments employ the same means for keeping their members, followers, and citizens obedient and docile. The main key is dis-information in combination with the brainwashing into belief in the absolute righteousness of their respective causes.

With the increasing popularity of the Internet, SGI found itself with a
potential problem. No matter how much brainwashing is done at the SGI
meetings (zadankai), the members with the access to Internet may be
exposed to all kinds of alternate ideas and opinions as far as Buddhist
doctrine is concerned and, what's worse, they may be exposed to the
truth about SGI and its leader Daisaku Ikeda. These things, while
carefully suppressed within the SGI cult, may find their way in through
the back door of the Internet and possibly corrupt the unity and
dedication of the followers which the cult leaders are trying so hard to
achieve.

I was involved in starting the "Intenet Commitee" in Philadelphia. SGI
purchased a separate telephone line and a Netcom account. Several
"dedicated" members with the Internet access were recruited to monitor
a.r.b.n, collect "weekly statistics" (exactly like what Soren is doing)
and the offending posts. All data was sent on a weekly basis to Ian
McIlraith (I think he is SGI USA Youth Division chief) in LA. The whole
operation was done in secrecy and no one was supposed to be aware of it
besides the members of the "Internet Commitee", Joint Territory leaders
and some leaders of Anti-Danto group (eventually the AD and Internet
groups were combined). In the beginning all the posts were e-mailed to
Mr. McIlraith for approval (I still have his letter praising these
"efforts")

It is curious to consider the degrees of the "offense". While any issue
regarding Buddhist doctrine was TOTALLY ignored and considered
irrelevant, the most offensive articles were considered those that
criticized Daisaku Ikeda, and then the SGI cult itself. The TRUTH was
not even an issue at all. The most important thing was to defend Ikeda
and SGI, no matter what. That's when I started posting here as "Bo
Fugen". Craig Bratcher was considered the "worst offender"
(Congratulations, Craig;) and, as some might remember, Craig and I
were involved in one bitter "flame war" after another. Some of my posts
against Nichiren Shoshu were so bad that they were flamed even by Soren
(that must have been the ultimate in bad taste:(!) At that time I
replied to Soren, explaining my position and got his personal "blessing"
(apparently he is trying to blackmail me with that now).

Another curious point is: It has been decided by the "brains" behind
this activity to not attack xyz [another Nichiren sect] but to try and
become friendly with them so together we could fight against the
"common enemy" - Nichiren Shoshu...*

...I am not interested in defending cults, organizations and sects - all I
want to do is practice Buddhism and attain enlightenment. THERE IS NO
BUDDHISM IN SGI - it is a disgusting and oppressive cult, truly
represented here by Soren and Kathy. They have a purpose of being on
this newsgroup - that purpose has NOTHING to do with Religion, Buddhism
or Nichiren. Their purpose is to discredit anything that threatens their
cult by spreading lies, half-truths, more lies and more half-truths."

* I cut out a discourse on other Nichiren sects and Buddhist doctrines. Suffice it to say SGI doesn't care about Buddhist doctrine and hates the other Nichiren sects but not as much as they hate the Nichiren Shoshu.

Nichijew

From the perspective of a member of another Nichiren sect, here is some proof that the SGI has brainwashed people:

Seemingly intelligent and accomplished people, professionals etc. seeking personal guidance from uneducated and ignorant rabble like Mr. Kasahara, on a daily, weekly or monthly basis; Believing that lying is ok as long as the goals of SGI are met. SGI practice thus leads to moral bankruptcy which is readily apparent to everyone except the sgi member himself.

Anecdotal evidence that members are unable to see reality as it is:

The SGI has an old saying, "AIDS isn't a problem it's an opportunity." Reality is, first you tackle the problem and then rejoice. This is the natural order of things. We do not practice Hinduism, bliss, bliss, joy, joy. We practice the exhalted teachings of Buddha and Nichiren. First you pull out the arrow then you heal. "Joy of joys, I have an arrow in my chest" is not Buddhism. Look for some authentic statues or pictures of Buddha and Nichiren. They were dead serious. They weren't Lamas or sGI senior leaders giggling at a bad joke.

One day, I was walking in the street after having done several hours of Daimoku and I was, as we used to say in the SGI, lit up. I met an old SGI "friend" of mine, a high level leader who was glaring at me as all my old SGI friends who know my opinions are want to do. I said hi. He said, "Mark, you appear so unhappy since you left the SGI." My heart really went out to this person and even though I don't usually invite "insane" people to my house to learn about the Kempon Hokke, I invited him so that he may have the opportunity to encounter the beautiful Kempon Hokke practice and Gohonzon,. He declined and told me I will fall into hell.

Further proof of disordered thinking is that SGI members lie and oftentimes don't even know they are lying:

Everytime an SGI member argues about SGI or Ikeda or Buddhism and even when they cite the Lotus Sutra or Gosho, he is lying about the true nature of the SGI and Buddha Shakyamuni. One who lives a lie is a perpetual liar and can expound no truths: SGI--->Ikeda; Ikeda--->Ikeda; Gosho--->Ikeda; Nam Myoho renge kyo--->Ikeda; Buddha--->Ikeda; Lotus Sutra--->Ikeda; This is implicit or implied.

To recap, the root causes of the disordered thinking and disorganized thought in the SGI are lying, erroneous guidance on the basics of the Nichiren faith [the Three Treasures of the Lotus Sutra, for example], and the mixing of the Lotus Sutra with the unclean practices of Japanese bushido [Master Disciple teachings]. Even teaching the SGI's mistaken views out of ignorance makes men into napalm spewing demons let alone those who know and lie intentionally (those at the top). The leaders and sycophynts in SGI thus abuse the members using both subtle and not so subtle group dynamics and brainwashing techniques.

The SGI is not the Buddha Shakyamuni's Sangha led by Jogyo. It is Ikeda's Sangha led by Ikeda. He has not only appropriated the rightful position of the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni but also that of Bodhisattva Jogyo. Ikeda, to SGI, is the Treasure of the Buddha and the Treasure of the Sangha (or Priest) all wrapped up into one. Even the treasure of the Law is distorted with the leaders and members chanting Nam Myoho renge kyo with their mouths but Nam Ikeda Sensei with their hearts. The new members, I have been talking to, want to practice Buddhism, not Ikedaism, not Human Revolution, Value Creationism nor feel good new age mysticism. They want to learn about the Lotus Sutra and the Gosho. They yearn to connect to the Lotus Sutra and Gosho, not to President Ikeda and the Human Revolution. The subtle pressures put on the members to connect to Ikeda are nothing short of intense while the Lotus Sutra is mystified and demeaned as being too difficult to understand by lesser men than Ikeda and Toda. Then we have people with real problems, health issues, social issues who are guided by the liars and sycophants and the unenlightened worldlings in SGI who have never even read the Lotus Sutra. Those who claim to have attained what they have not, those who haven't even read the Lotus Sutra, yet claim to be reading it with their bodies. I go all over online and speak to new members. The people I speak to, the people before the guilt, propaganda, and brainwashing have set in, have myriad doubts about the SGI and then they begin to have doubts in Nichiren's teachings and I tell them to at least try and keep a modicum of faith in the Lotus Sutra: "The SGI does not chant the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra or they wouldn't behave as they do." At best, the SGI Daimoku can be called mechanical. At worst, it will destroy the teachings of the Buddha and Nichiren. The SGI is an enemy of the Buddha and the Lotus Sutra.

Nichijew