Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: February 20, 2012 07:43AM
I'm continuing to go thru this long Gakkai thread and have just found another point I'd like to add to:
The above is just switching from one form of abuse (physical) to another (mental). "Leaders"/"senior leaders" are not oracles of wise council. I was too close to some of them to know better and have also heard them dispensing sage advice on matters that they had no business even offering their opinion on (e.g., mentally ill members, etc.) simply because they were completely ignorant on the subject matter.
This whole business of going for "guidance" perpetuates an infantile dependence and willingly defers to others the responsibility of thinking for you (In some cases, this is, in fact, what some people want and/or need).
The first point is absolutely true and the latter point, I'd say they are downright paranoid about.
There is a current salaried "leader" whom I know has come from such a messed up childhood background that the very notion of this person dispensing "guidance" is, to me, patently absurd. In fact, listening to one of this person's speeches at a meeting reminded me of some scenes from "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest."
Quote
lthomas
Also, another thing that I noticed within SGI was the fact that, the higher you were promoted, the more colder you seemed. It was as if normal human emotions such as, sadness (and in some cases anger) were not allowed. I remember one time suffering as a result of a emotionally abusive relationship. I got no support at all. The members kept telling me that, I was the one who cause this to happen to me. They purport to this as if it was the result of a past life time that I had shared with this person that cause this to happen. I also remember a young woman being molested and her going for guidance and being told that she chose for it to happen to her as a result of a past life. There was ( and still is) so much of that going on. The thing about it though was those same people who were talking about all of these things would slander, curse, and demean others if something bad happen to them.
The above is just switching from one form of abuse (physical) to another (mental). "Leaders"/"senior leaders" are not oracles of wise council. I was too close to some of them to know better and have also heard them dispensing sage advice on matters that they had no business even offering their opinion on (e.g., mentally ill members, etc.) simply because they were completely ignorant on the subject matter.
This whole business of going for "guidance" perpetuates an infantile dependence and willingly defers to others the responsibility of thinking for you (In some cases, this is, in fact, what some people want and/or need).
Quote
tsukimoto
SGI leaders are not necessarily the sharpest knives in the drawer anyway...they're more on the look-out for people who question or criticize SGI.
The first point is absolutely true and the latter point, I'd say they are downright paranoid about.
There is a current salaried "leader" whom I know has come from such a messed up childhood background that the very notion of this person dispensing "guidance" is, to me, patently absurd. In fact, listening to one of this person's speeches at a meeting reminded me of some scenes from "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest."
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Shavoy
()
Date: February 21, 2012 04:41AM
Wow, great posts in the last few days from everyone....
So much to comment on, but I want to ask the question again: Did any of these leaders, who were giving encouragement to "use your heart", "say yes no matter what", etc. etc....ever reveal that they were experiencing Enlightenment, or Buddhahood--in other words, were they finally in that state of Unshakable Happiness?....(Probably not that they would truly reveal their Life Condition...)
The more you do, the more you give to the SGI, the more you don't "complain", criticize, stuff your feelings, worship Daisaku as your sole mentor in life, the more you should be blessed with limitless happiness, right?
I think the truth is a bit different. And most leaders never can divulge the true state of their lives. Some may feel Eagle Peak, more power to them. But I'm suspecting that is not the case for a lot of them.
As the Anti-Cult says, it's back on the hamster wheel.
So much to comment on, but I want to ask the question again: Did any of these leaders, who were giving encouragement to "use your heart", "say yes no matter what", etc. etc....ever reveal that they were experiencing Enlightenment, or Buddhahood--in other words, were they finally in that state of Unshakable Happiness?....(Probably not that they would truly reveal their Life Condition...)
The more you do, the more you give to the SGI, the more you don't "complain", criticize, stuff your feelings, worship Daisaku as your sole mentor in life, the more you should be blessed with limitless happiness, right?
I think the truth is a bit different. And most leaders never can divulge the true state of their lives. Some may feel Eagle Peak, more power to them. But I'm suspecting that is not the case for a lot of them.
As the Anti-Cult says, it's back on the hamster wheel.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
bobze39
()
Date: February 21, 2012 07:30AM
Hitch, you are absolutely right, I totally brought it all on myself by screwing around, (I am not the only one, who brought bad stuff on himself by screwing around, I mean, look at Clinton, there is a new PBS documentary about him) in fact, because of this realization, for a while, I didn't even feel angry at SGI, I almost felt, that they were punishing me fairly. But the time passed, and just as Clinton and Monica Lewinsky are allowed to return back to their normal lives, I feel that I should be too. But here is the difference between SGI "justice" and regular justice, in a regular justice system, even if you are punished by public opinion, there is always a time limit (unless you get life in prison). But religious fanatics just keep it up. And that's when I realized, that it wasn't even about me anymore, SGI just needs enemies! Once again I will quote Tsukimoto's post on page 27, because it is really the key to understanding the way SGI thinks: I have read on another online forum that I go to, that, these days, SGI is talking less about the evils of Nikken/Nichiren Shoshu -- and more about "traitors" within SGI itself, which is part of the rationale behind the Code of Conduct. Kind of makes sense, in a paranoid, cynical way. Nikken's been retired for years, Nichiren Shoshu pretty much ignores SGI...even SGI can't keep pounding the same drum for twenty years. Harping on "an enemy" is a way that leaders can manipulate followers. Hitler unified the German people by lying about and scapegoating the Jews and the Roma people (gypsies), Joe McCarthy unified Americans against the communist threat...the list goes on and on throughout history. Now, SGI will be sacrificing those members who can ask questions and think for themselves.
For those of you, who read my previous post, it might seem unlikely that it's possible to turn people against someone to the point that they are going to refuse to give recommendation letters. Well, to clarify this, they use the same technique they use to shakubuku people. The same idea, BREAK AND SUBDUE, they break person's old belief system and impose a new one. A little human revolution. If person believed that it's good to go to the church on Sundays, now he/she believes that it's good to chant for a new car. Quite a transformation, right? Also might seem unlikely. But they do accomplish it by some psychological tricks. Well, the same with defaming someone, you just have to break the old belief system about the person and impose a new one. Before your teacher (or a colleague, a neighbour) believed that you are a good person, and oversudden they believe, that you are a piece of ... Can be done. Just another little human revolution. The same set of psychological tricks.
I my case, they needed to make a little human revolution in the heart of the key person in my life at the time, my mentor and academic advisor, who was going to give me the most important recommendation. They learned that he was gay, and decided to go from there. (Probably if they wanted to shakubuku him, they would tell him that Nichiren loved gays). They played him like a violin. But they played it smart. They didn't just approach him and say "your such and such student is a homophobe." He probably wouldn't believe them. No, they approached his best friend, and convinced his best friend that I was a piece of ... (by telling him that I took advantage of one female student, who was his favorite) and homophobic. And then this best friend told my advisor that I was homophobe. Now - he believed his best friend. People tend to believe their friends. That's why SGI encourages members to bring their friends to meetings. Shakubuku through friends works. Defaming through friends works too.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 07:59AM by bobze39.
For those of you, who read my previous post, it might seem unlikely that it's possible to turn people against someone to the point that they are going to refuse to give recommendation letters. Well, to clarify this, they use the same technique they use to shakubuku people. The same idea, BREAK AND SUBDUE, they break person's old belief system and impose a new one. A little human revolution. If person believed that it's good to go to the church on Sundays, now he/she believes that it's good to chant for a new car. Quite a transformation, right? Also might seem unlikely. But they do accomplish it by some psychological tricks. Well, the same with defaming someone, you just have to break the old belief system about the person and impose a new one. Before your teacher (or a colleague, a neighbour) believed that you are a good person, and oversudden they believe, that you are a piece of ... Can be done. Just another little human revolution. The same set of psychological tricks.
I my case, they needed to make a little human revolution in the heart of the key person in my life at the time, my mentor and academic advisor, who was going to give me the most important recommendation. They learned that he was gay, and decided to go from there. (Probably if they wanted to shakubuku him, they would tell him that Nichiren loved gays). They played him like a violin. But they played it smart. They didn't just approach him and say "your such and such student is a homophobe." He probably wouldn't believe them. No, they approached his best friend, and convinced his best friend that I was a piece of ... (by telling him that I took advantage of one female student, who was his favorite) and homophobic. And then this best friend told my advisor that I was homophobe. Now - he believed his best friend. People tend to believe their friends. That's why SGI encourages members to bring their friends to meetings. Shakubuku through friends works. Defaming through friends works too.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 07:59AM by bobze39.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: February 21, 2012 01:13PM
Quote
bobze39
Hitch, you are absolutely right, I totally brought it all on myself by screwing around, (I am not the only one, who brought bad stuff on himself by screwing around, I mean, look at Clinton, there is a new PBS documentary about him) in fact, because of this realization, for a while, I didn't even feel angry at SGI, I almost felt, that they were punishing me fairly. But the time passed, and just as Clinton and Monica Lewinsky are allowed to return back to their normal lives, I feel that I should be too. But here is the difference between SGI "justice" and regular justice, in a regular justice system, even if you are punished by public opinion, there is always a time limit (unless you get life in prison). But religious fanatics just keep it up. And that's when I realized, that it wasn't even about me anymore, SGI just needs enemies! Once again I will quote Tsukimoto's post on page 27, because it is really the key to understanding the way SGI thinks: I have read on another online forum that I go to, that, these days, SGI is talking less about the evils of Nikken/Nichiren Shoshu -- and more about "traitors" within SGI itself, which is part of the rationale behind the Code of Conduct. Kind of makes sense, in a paranoid, cynical way. Nikken's been retired for years, Nichiren Shoshu pretty much ignores SGI...even SGI can't keep pounding the same drum for twenty years. Harping on "an enemy" is a way that leaders can manipulate followers. Hitler unified the German people by lying about and scapegoating the Jews and the Roma people (gypsies), Joe McCarthy unified Americans against the communist threat...the list goes on and on throughout history. Now, SGI will be sacrificing those members who can ask questions and think for themselves.
For those of you, who read my previous post, it might seem unlikely that it's possible to turn people against someone to the point that they are going to refuse to give recommendation letters. Well, to clarify this, they use the same technique they use to shakubuku people. The same idea, BREAK AND SUBDUE, they break person's old belief system and impose a new one. A little human revolution. If person believed that it's good to go to the church on Sundays, now he/she believes that it's good to chant for a new car. Quite a transformation, right? Also might seem unlikely. But they do accomplish it by some psychological tricks. Well, the same with defaming someone, you just have to break the old belief system about the person and impose a new one. Before your teacher (or a colleague, a neighbour) believed that you are a good person, and oversudden they believe, that you are a piece of ... Can be done. Just another little human revolution. The same set of psychological tricks.
I my case, they needed to make a little human revolution in the heart of the key person in my life at the time, my mentor and academic advisor, who was going to give me the most important recommendation. They learned that he was gay, and decided to go from there. (Probably if they wanted to shakubuku him, they would tell him that Nichiren loved gays). They played him like a violin. But they played it smart. They didn't just approach him and say "your such and such student is a homophobe." He probably wouldn't believe them. No, they approached his best friend, and convinced his best friend that I was a piece of ... (by telling him that I took advantage of one female student, who was his favorite) and homophobic. And then this best friend told my advisor that I was homophobe. Now - he believed his best friend. People tend to believe their friends. That's why SGI encourages members to bring their friends to meetings. Shakubuku through friends works. Defaming through friends works too.
SGI has many characteristics of fascism. There is however, little that can't be overcome in life, quadriplegia, for example. Most other things can be overcome.
Mark
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: February 21, 2012 02:00PM
Sgi leaders' code of conduct = SIEG HEIL!!
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: February 21, 2012 11:01PM
Quote
Hitch
Sgi leaders' code of conduct = SIEG HEIL!![/quote
HAI
SGI leader: Hai!
SGI member: Hi!
SGI leader: No. HAI
SGI member: How high?
SGI leader: Can you give an experience at the next Area meeting?:
SGI member: Ok. How about the time I went to Atlantic City and lost all my money. I had to beg the toll man to let me through the Lincoln tunnel. I chanted to myself and he let me go through. Then I went home and ate peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and spaghetti, ketchup, and canned peas for two weeks.
SGI leader: Did you learn anything from the experience?
SGI member: Yes, to always leave toll money in the car and stock up on food before I go to Atlantic city. I also thought about what Sensei would do in my situation.
SGI leader: You did?
SGI member: He would call his chauffer to bring him another bag of Zaimu.
SGI leader: You certainly have done a lot of human revolution.
SGI member: Like Zapata?
SGI leader: No. Like Sennichi Yamamoto.
SGI member: Who dat?
SGI leader: That is Sensei’s fictionalized name in his book, The Human Revolution.
SGI member: Oh yeah, I forgot. We read about him last year, the year before that, the year before that, and the year before that. There were no battles or anything except with that old priest Ogasawara. Sennichi roughed him up pretty good.
SGI leader: Of course there are no battles except with the Dantos, the Kempon Hokke, and the Nichiren Shu. This is a battle with yourself, a battle to follow Sensei no matter what, like he followed his mentor, President Toda.
SGI member: Like Simon Bolivar says?
SGI leader: More like Simple Simon says: President Ikeda says do this, President Ikeda says do that, President Ikeda says do this, and President Ikeda says do that, and you do it. But if your heart and mind says do this or do that, don’t do it.
SGI Member: You mean if President Ikeda says, Nichiren is the True Buddha, and President Ikeda says, only recite the Hoben-pon and Jiga-ge sections of the Lotus Sutra, and President Ikeda says, only believe in the Nichikan Gohonzon, and President Ikeda says, touch your nose, and President Ikeda says touch your left shoulder, you do it. But if you feel like chanting the entire 16th Chapter, or if you feel compelled to revere Shakyamuni as the Eternal Original Buddha, or if your tushy itches, you don’t scratch it because President Ikeda didn’t say to touch your tushy.
SGI leader: That is overcoming your negativity and your ego. That is human revolution!
SGI member: Now I understand. Sennichi threw that old priest, Ogassawara, into the pond because President Toda said to throw him in. I bet President Ikeda would tell us to throw Rev. Nagasaki of the New York temple into the Hudson river.
SGI leader: That would be too good for him. But first you have to clean President Ikeda’s toilet in the President’s room.
SGI member: But no one has been up to that room in 12 years.
SGI leader: President Ikeda says to keep his toilet clean because you never know when he might show up.
SGI member: Hai!
SGI leader: Heil
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Shavoy
()
Date: February 22, 2012 02:04AM
@Nichijew---all I can say is, brilliant!!! Hai!, indeed!
@bobze39, that you've had to endure this "enemy of SGI!" mindset, is just....so un-Buddhist. If Kosen-rufu would ever be achieved, it would be a chilly world. There will be no democracy. People will have to tow the Ikeda line. It's amazing that there is always talk of "heart-to-heart, sincere dialogue", being able to "discuss anything openly that's in your heart and mind".....really??? Too much power is a dangerous thing. To disagree at all amounts to slander, which deserves revenge, hai!
And all the talk of "protecting your Mentor in Life" no matter what....I read an article on P.I., possibly on Rick Ross, where he admitted he holds grudges. Hai!, indeed!
So this is coming from the King. And I ask again, will this really bring Indestructible Happiness?
@bobze39, that you've had to endure this "enemy of SGI!" mindset, is just....so un-Buddhist. If Kosen-rufu would ever be achieved, it would be a chilly world. There will be no democracy. People will have to tow the Ikeda line. It's amazing that there is always talk of "heart-to-heart, sincere dialogue", being able to "discuss anything openly that's in your heart and mind".....really??? Too much power is a dangerous thing. To disagree at all amounts to slander, which deserves revenge, hai!
And all the talk of "protecting your Mentor in Life" no matter what....I read an article on P.I., possibly on Rick Ross, where he admitted he holds grudges. Hai!, indeed!
So this is coming from the King. And I ask again, will this really bring Indestructible Happiness?
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: February 22, 2012 05:46AM
The "HAI!"-ing is even much more intense in Japan (where it is deeply indoctrinated into the fabric of the cultural mindset obsessed with artificial rank/levels). When you add the "Hai"-ing along with the rigid straight body stance and bowing by some of the American members, I've always found it ultra-creepy. An interesting study into psychology, for sure.
The Führer Ikeda room is another fascinating glimpse into psychology. I've seen those rooms, sitting under lock and key (controlled by a pioneer Japanese SS-Obaasan), fully and grandly furnished, yet empty shrines where they even bow before entering to clean them. Again, creepy, but also sad.
Bobze, any "friend" who bad-mouths other "friends", you are surely better off without anyway (it' only a matter of time before you're next in line on the receiving end). Decent friends don't do that and decent people reserve judgement and think for themselves.
I think it's pathetic the way that clip (posted earlier) takes an ordinary event that will occur sooner or later in any young man's course of life and turns it into some kind of miraculous benefit (that's pretty much the story with the entire sgi practice). But, as your "experience" shows, you'll only meet the same caliber of people from the rotten barrel that you are fishing from to begin with. I've seen it many times. I'd say you're fortunate to cut your losses early, have a life's lesson learned and move on, rather than trudging thru half of your life only to latter recognize the looney farm that you unwittingly stepped into (and by that time may even have kids invested into the equation). Cheer up and don't fret, the rational world is your oyster.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 05:48AM by Hitch.
Quote
Nichijew
SGI leader: That would be too good for him. But first you have to clean President Ikeda’s toilet in the President’s room.
SGI member: But no one has been up to that room in 12 years.
SGI leader: President Ikeda says to keep his toilet clean because you never know when he might show up.
SGI member: Hai!
SGI leader: Heil
The Führer Ikeda room is another fascinating glimpse into psychology. I've seen those rooms, sitting under lock and key (controlled by a pioneer Japanese SS-Obaasan), fully and grandly furnished, yet empty shrines where they even bow before entering to clean them. Again, creepy, but also sad.
Quote
bobze39
Now - he believed his best friend. People tend to believe their friends. That's why SGI encourages members to bring their friends to meetings. Shakubuku through friends works. Defaming through friends works too.
Bobze, any "friend" who bad-mouths other "friends", you are surely better off without anyway (it' only a matter of time before you're next in line on the receiving end). Decent friends don't do that and decent people reserve judgement and think for themselves.
I think it's pathetic the way that clip (posted earlier) takes an ordinary event that will occur sooner or later in any young man's course of life and turns it into some kind of miraculous benefit (that's pretty much the story with the entire sgi practice). But, as your "experience" shows, you'll only meet the same caliber of people from the rotten barrel that you are fishing from to begin with. I've seen it many times. I'd say you're fortunate to cut your losses early, have a life's lesson learned and move on, rather than trudging thru half of your life only to latter recognize the looney farm that you unwittingly stepped into (and by that time may even have kids invested into the equation). Cheer up and don't fret, the rational world is your oyster.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 05:48AM by Hitch.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
simplify
()
Date: February 22, 2012 06:10AM
Quote
Hitch
The Führer Ikeda room is another fascinating glimpse into psychology. I've seen those rooms, sitting under lock and key (controlled by a pioneer Japanese SS-Obaasan), fully and grandly furnished, yet empty shrines where they even bow before entering to clean them. Again, creepy, but also sad.
I heard that the Scientologists keep a special office for Ron L Hubbard in all their centres, even though he is dead. Is this 'shrine' room common in cults? Is it for mind control purposes (eg reinforcing personality worship)?
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: February 22, 2012 06:57AM
I can only speak as to the sg and sgi-usa situation. In America, the rooms are a prerequisite to any site before selecting as a "kaikan." They are created, the center is opened and the rooms always sit empty (except for maintenance and regular cleaning). It's supposed to embody the spirit of the leader and the spirit of your true faith - a potential connection; the cleaner, shinier (the room) and purer your faith (along with practice and study) and daimoku, the more "likely" the day will come when the dear leader will honor you and your area members with his actual presence or - more likely - a message. I wouldn't be surprised if they even send photos for approval and acceptance to Japan. These rooms are kind of like an embarrassing hidden secret, akin to the mormon's magical underwear (I kid, but only a little - [www.youtube.com]).
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