Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Shavoy
()
Date: February 17, 2012 02:40AM
Quote
HitchQuote
evergreen
I have to say that I married an Amerasian or Asian-American. One other distinction the Japanese make is against the Okinawan people. I have even had Japanese members, who are supposedly more enlightened than others in Japan by virtue of Ikeda's worldliness and dialogue, tell me that my husband's mother isn't really Japanese.
It makes me laugh. Did Nichiren retire to Mount Minobu and map out who in his land was really Japanese?
I am curious about this issue for a number of reasons. Ikeda has dialogue with almost every conceivable minority. His followers read all of his stuff. Do they incorporate an understanding of oppressed people into their hearts?
Wakkata's original reply to this post was, as usual, right on the money. This is also what I was alluding to earlier about understanding the language. Ironically, a lot of the people I heard it from where also married to caucasians themselves. It's just an unfortunate example of somebody who was once discriminated against, turning around and discriminating against others. I even heard some of the same kinds of bile about interracial (black with white) relationships, while some of their fellow "best friend" members where in fact married to African-Americans. They saw absolutely nothing wrong with these kinds of remarks, either; stunning examples of abject narrow-minded ignorance. In fact, some of the most bigoted (and two-faced) people I have ever had the misfortune of meeting in my entire life, were (I hate to say it) fellow Japanese gakkai members.
I'm sorry for your experiences evergreen. Their ignorant intolerance isn't isolated to one subject area (in this case relationships) either, but extends to many different things as well (social classes, other religions, etc.). What the gakkai preaches is very rarely what I saw in actual real life practice, applied to their own lives.
Which follows in other religions as well....How many deeply professed Christians are guilty of the same thing...what is preached doesn't translate in the behavior. It's a sad but true part of the universal human condition, yes? The Soka Gakkai can't really claim that practicing SGI Buddhism will automatically elevate them to The Ultimate and Only Perfect Humanity on earth, can they? But they do.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
holly_golightly
()
Date: February 17, 2012 04:42AM
Hello to everyone on this thread. I have been following it for some time and can relate to a lot of what is being said. I have been out of the organisation for a short time (a month) but when I was part of it I was totally immersed. I was a leader for quite a few years and always felt like nothing I could do was good enough. The more I tried (and failed) the worse I felt. I went to every course going and threw myself into every activity possible in order to try and 'change my karma'. The trouble was, the more I invested my time and energy, the more cheated I felt when things didn't work out in my life. I would then try to suppress these feelings because I knew I shouldn't be complaining or 'thinking negatively' and that it was all 'my responsiblity'. So I would go to even more meetings, do more home visits, more hours of daimoku, whatever it would take. I would set myself goals and determinations for the countless campaigns that I was told about. When I didn't achieve them I thought it must be because I wasn't sincere enough, didn't try hard enough, wasn't enough of 'sensei's disciple'.
As I had been advised by many of my co-members and leaders, shakabuku was the way to 'change karma'. So I often would force myself to tell people about the practice (totally against my nature as I don't like to force things on people). The trouble was, my personal life wasn't going so well, and so I had to try and convince people how happy I was and how the practice had changed my life (only it hadn't).
I remember going to courses feeling totally inadequate and very much a failure because I wasn't 'inspiring' lots of people to practice like some of the people giving their experiences who had managed to get 15 people to chant or go to a discussion meeting, or something like that.
The thing is that I so wanted it to work - I had invested so many years in this practice that the thought that it might not actually be true was an unbearable thought. I deliberately kept away from anything negative written or said about SGI in case this had a bad effect on my life. Looking back I can see that I was very much ruled by fear.
I think I have read here that there is a lot of 'double-think' and 'double-speak' in the SGI. I feel that is so true. I would tie myself up in knots sometimes trying to reconcile what I was being told how I should feel with how I really felt inside.
There were of course 'no rules' in the SGI. However, there was great pressure as a leader to always give an inspiring experience in discussion meetings in order to show people the power of the practice. The more years I stayed as a leader the more pressure to 'deliver' a wonderful, happy life full of benefits.
It is difficult to leave an organisation which I was so much part of but now I can talk to people as a normal person (rather than constantly having to think of having to 'save' people). I don't have all the answers about life (I never did) there are ups and downs and now I can celebrate and sympathise with other people about their lifes rather than constantly having to view it through an SGI perspective.
It is difficult for me to express how I feel about all this, especially to people who don't know what I have been through and equally to people who are still practising so I am grateful to this forum for having an opportunity to process some of these thoughts and to be able to move on.
As I had been advised by many of my co-members and leaders, shakabuku was the way to 'change karma'. So I often would force myself to tell people about the practice (totally against my nature as I don't like to force things on people). The trouble was, my personal life wasn't going so well, and so I had to try and convince people how happy I was and how the practice had changed my life (only it hadn't).
I remember going to courses feeling totally inadequate and very much a failure because I wasn't 'inspiring' lots of people to practice like some of the people giving their experiences who had managed to get 15 people to chant or go to a discussion meeting, or something like that.
The thing is that I so wanted it to work - I had invested so many years in this practice that the thought that it might not actually be true was an unbearable thought. I deliberately kept away from anything negative written or said about SGI in case this had a bad effect on my life. Looking back I can see that I was very much ruled by fear.
I think I have read here that there is a lot of 'double-think' and 'double-speak' in the SGI. I feel that is so true. I would tie myself up in knots sometimes trying to reconcile what I was being told how I should feel with how I really felt inside.
There were of course 'no rules' in the SGI. However, there was great pressure as a leader to always give an inspiring experience in discussion meetings in order to show people the power of the practice. The more years I stayed as a leader the more pressure to 'deliver' a wonderful, happy life full of benefits.
It is difficult to leave an organisation which I was so much part of but now I can talk to people as a normal person (rather than constantly having to think of having to 'save' people). I don't have all the answers about life (I never did) there are ups and downs and now I can celebrate and sympathise with other people about their lifes rather than constantly having to view it through an SGI perspective.
It is difficult for me to express how I feel about all this, especially to people who don't know what I have been through and equally to people who are still practising so I am grateful to this forum for having an opportunity to process some of these thoughts and to be able to move on.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
bobze39
()
Date: February 17, 2012 07:32AM
Hello, Holly_Golightly, thank you for sharing your story. Isn't it interesting, how much emphasis SGI puts on shakubuku? People lose ability to communicate normally with other people, they don't see a real person, all what they see is a potential "client" for shakubuku. In fact, shakubuku is not just an important part of SGI practice, but the very survival of the organization depends on shakubuku! Without aggressive shakubuku SGI would wither and die long time ago. As Anticult mentioned before, SGI doesn't try to keep members as long as possible, rather SGI tries to squeeze everything from a member, and then discard him/her. Thus, they realize that every member has a limited life span in SGI. So, just as we learned from a biology class, because all species have limited life spans, they have to proliferate and reproduce in order to survive. Genetically, humans are also programmed in such a way, that after reproductive age, the process of cell division and replacement slows down and then eventually stops. So, thus, clearly, in the survival process, the emphasis is put on reproduction, rather than on the survival of individual species. Scientists call it 'selfish gene" theory. So, that was very smart of SGI to apply this theory.
The Anticult said: "Don't give SGI another dime or another minute of your labor". I would add to this: "Don't do shakubuku".
The Anticult said: "Don't give SGI another dime or another minute of your labor". I would add to this: "Don't do shakubuku".
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: February 17, 2012 07:57AM
Quote
Shavoy
Which follows in other religions as well....How many deeply professed Christians are guilty of the same thing...what is preached doesn't translate in the behavior. It's a sad but true part of the universal human condition, yes? The Soka Gakkai can't really claim that practicing SGI Buddhism will automatically elevate them to The Ultimate and Only Perfect Humanity on earth, can they? But they do.
Religious hypocrisy is a universal eternal. That said, I can only really truly speak to what I have encountered first hand growing up in Sgi-usa. These comments came from top leaders and founding "pioneer" members. IMO, ample demonstration of their accumulated "treasures of the heart" through years of sincere practice.
Quote
holly_golightly
As I had been advised by many of my co-members and leaders, shakabuku was the way to 'change karma'. So I often would force myself to tell people about the practice (totally against my nature as I don't like to force things on people). The trouble was, my personal life wasn't going so well, and so I had to try and convince people how happy I was and how the practice had changed my life (only it hadn't).
Welcome holly_golightly, I came aboard just last week myself. My best to you in your journey to find your own way. The first step is to start thinking for one's self and not let others do it for you - sounds like you are well on your way (this is also something that they will highly discourage). Anybody who encourages others to not think for themselves, should cause one to run (not walk) in the opposite direction.
Critical and skeptical thinking cut thru my "karma" like a hot knife thru cold butter.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
holly_golightly
()
Date: February 17, 2012 02:32PM
Thank you for the welcome, bobze39 and Hitch.
Yes, for many years I remember being told that shakabuku is not about getting members, it's about revealing someone's buddhahood. I think that's where the doublethink comes in. Deep down I felt a great pressure to 'inspire' more people to practice. However I suppressed the negative and awkward feelings about that as being wrong because I obviously wasn't understanding the 'true intention' of revealing buddhahood! Like its been said in this thread, all the negative feelings I had became translated as signs that I wasn't practising 'correctly' - more daimoku/study/courses/meetings must be needed!
And like others I've also had years of being told not to 'think' but to 'use my heart' when making decisions (whatever that means). It's a way of conditioning people that to think critically is wrong. I was like it myself in meetings if anyone (especially new) was overcritical of the practice or was asking what I thought was too many questions, I would secretly think to myself 'there is a person of learning! it's going to be difficult for them to practise unless they learn to trust, let go and stop thinking too much'. I got so proud of myself for my 'non-thinking' and great trust, and stamping out my 'cynical nature'.
However, now I am really enjoying getting back to exploring doubts, critical thought, analysing things, etc (i.e using my brain!). It's taking a bit of practice to get back into the habit and I am now very wary of people who say 'you shouldn't spend too much time in your head'. I need to spend a bit of time in my head thank you very much - it was not thinking enough that got me into the previous situation in the first place.
Yes, for many years I remember being told that shakabuku is not about getting members, it's about revealing someone's buddhahood. I think that's where the doublethink comes in. Deep down I felt a great pressure to 'inspire' more people to practice. However I suppressed the negative and awkward feelings about that as being wrong because I obviously wasn't understanding the 'true intention' of revealing buddhahood! Like its been said in this thread, all the negative feelings I had became translated as signs that I wasn't practising 'correctly' - more daimoku/study/courses/meetings must be needed!
And like others I've also had years of being told not to 'think' but to 'use my heart' when making decisions (whatever that means). It's a way of conditioning people that to think critically is wrong. I was like it myself in meetings if anyone (especially new) was overcritical of the practice or was asking what I thought was too many questions, I would secretly think to myself 'there is a person of learning! it's going to be difficult for them to practise unless they learn to trust, let go and stop thinking too much'. I got so proud of myself for my 'non-thinking' and great trust, and stamping out my 'cynical nature'.
However, now I am really enjoying getting back to exploring doubts, critical thought, analysing things, etc (i.e using my brain!). It's taking a bit of practice to get back into the habit and I am now very wary of people who say 'you shouldn't spend too much time in your head'. I need to spend a bit of time in my head thank you very much - it was not thinking enough that got me into the previous situation in the first place.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
wakatta1
()
Date: February 17, 2012 07:02PM
@shavoy
Two things happening here - first is the human trait of "not living up to the promise" and the second being a more specific "SGI hypocracy" - which I differentiate as two different things when portrayed here.
As a leader, the general membership brought their own set of problems into the practice. Passive-aggressive behaviors, gossip, mean-spiritedness, willfull ignorance and fawning hero worship all mixed into the equation as well. A cross section of NSA was pretty much a cross section of the population in any given area simply because of the aggressive shakubuku campaigns. How SGI chose to focus those folks and how it chose to focus its own organizational strengths is unique to SGI. No doubt other cults have similar but not comparable stories.
What I'm getting at here is that when we diverge away into broad philosophical comparisons and strawmen, we miss the point. SGI does what it does because of "who" it is. Much of the downside of the SGI experience was totally unnecessary - the statement "the shadow of the leader" comes to mind.
Indeed, if SGI was simply a "Japanese cultural organization that celebrates the many diverse elements of the people there" then a lot of the craziness might even be forgiveable, however since it was packaged and sold as a "deep oriental philosophy that provides an answer to lifes issues" it was incredibly oversold. That overselling was for the most part the core of the cover-up, and the skimming of donations and thought control that came along with that sunk its roots deeply into the organization. Once a lie is told, then another lie must be told to cover up for it. Each layer of dishonest begets another, and eventually you wind up with a fabric totally composed of lies (and their brothers half-truth, inuendo, implication, supposition and of course deception).
Comparing SGI's issues to a football team's organizational problems, or a couple's marital difficulties diffuses the true accountability as to what happened in that group. Many of us here were caught in the net and these postings (340 pages mind you!) point at that organizational dysfunction that is uniquely SGI.
Wakatta1
Quote
Shavoy
Which follows in other religions as well....How many deeply professed Christians are guilty of the same thing...what is preached doesn't translate in the behavior
Two things happening here - first is the human trait of "not living up to the promise" and the second being a more specific "SGI hypocracy" - which I differentiate as two different things when portrayed here.
As a leader, the general membership brought their own set of problems into the practice. Passive-aggressive behaviors, gossip, mean-spiritedness, willfull ignorance and fawning hero worship all mixed into the equation as well. A cross section of NSA was pretty much a cross section of the population in any given area simply because of the aggressive shakubuku campaigns. How SGI chose to focus those folks and how it chose to focus its own organizational strengths is unique to SGI. No doubt other cults have similar but not comparable stories.
What I'm getting at here is that when we diverge away into broad philosophical comparisons and strawmen, we miss the point. SGI does what it does because of "who" it is. Much of the downside of the SGI experience was totally unnecessary - the statement "the shadow of the leader" comes to mind.
Indeed, if SGI was simply a "Japanese cultural organization that celebrates the many diverse elements of the people there" then a lot of the craziness might even be forgiveable, however since it was packaged and sold as a "deep oriental philosophy that provides an answer to lifes issues" it was incredibly oversold. That overselling was for the most part the core of the cover-up, and the skimming of donations and thought control that came along with that sunk its roots deeply into the organization. Once a lie is told, then another lie must be told to cover up for it. Each layer of dishonest begets another, and eventually you wind up with a fabric totally composed of lies (and their brothers half-truth, inuendo, implication, supposition and of course deception).
Comparing SGI's issues to a football team's organizational problems, or a couple's marital difficulties diffuses the true accountability as to what happened in that group. Many of us here were caught in the net and these postings (340 pages mind you!) point at that organizational dysfunction that is uniquely SGI.
Wakatta1
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
ScoobyDooby
()
Date: February 17, 2012 10:23PM
Quote
wakatta1Comparing SGI's issues to a football team's organizational problems, or a couple's marital difficulties diffuses the true accountability as to what happened in that group. Many of us here were caught in the net and these postings (340 pages mind you!) point at that organizational dysfunction that is uniquely SGI.
Wakatta1[/quote
Very well said as usual, Wakatta.
@Holly - Welcome to forum and congratulations on walking away from SGI. It takes a tremendous amount of fortitude to do this.
Yep, shakabuku is essential for the organization to survive. I've been witness to it many times even though I am not a member! My very first exposure to the SGI (or NSA as it was known back then) was being cold shakabukued on a subway platform. My initial reaction was: is this person nuts?
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: February 18, 2012 02:46AM
Quote
holly_golightly
Thank you for the welcome, bobze39 and Hitch.
Yes, for many years I remember being told that shakabuku is not about getting members, it's about revealing someone's buddhahood. I think that's where the doublethink comes in. Deep down I felt a great pressure to 'inspire' more people to practice. However I suppressed the negative and awkward feelings about that as being wrong because I obviously wasn't understanding the 'true intention' of revealing buddhahood! Like its been said in this thread, all the negative feelings I had became translated as signs that I wasn't practising 'correctly' - more daimoku/study/courses/meetings must be needed!
And like others I've also had years of being told not to 'think' but to 'use my heart' when making decisions (whatever that means). It's a way of conditioning people that to think critically is wrong. I was like it myself in meetings if anyone (especially new) was overcritical of the practice or was asking what I thought was too many questions, I would secretly think to myself 'there is a person of learning! it's going to be difficult for them to practise unless they learn to trust, let go and stop thinking too much'. I got so proud of myself for my 'non-thinking' and great trust, and stamping out my 'cynical nature'.
However, now I am really enjoying getting back to exploring doubts, critical thought, analysing things, etc (i.e using my brain!). It's taking a bit of practice to get back into the habit and I am now very wary of people who say 'you shouldn't spend too much time in your head'. I need to spend a bit of time in my head thank you very much - it was not thinking enough that got me into the previous situation in the first place.
Wonderful analysis. An old saying goes, think ten times before speaking. Both Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin revised their teachings many times because they THOUGHT about them. SGI is a thought controlling cult whose real purpose is the financial benefit [and stroking the ego] of Ikeda and his top lieutenants. They absolutely don't want the members or the non-salaried leaders to think about, research, and reflect on the Nichiren faith, the SGI organization, and the SGI leaders. This is an excellent forum on the Soka Gakkai. Thanks to Rick Ross many eyes have been opened.
Nichijew
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
holly_golightly
()
Date: February 18, 2012 03:41AM
Thanks ScoobyDooby and Nichijew
When reading what you have to say some examples of being told what to think spring to mind ...........
Being told as a leader that when you are exhausted and really feel that you have to devote a bit of time to yourself, then that is exactly the time you should 'dig deeper' and 'open your heart to others' - i.e try and do more home visits!
When I expressed my anxiety regarding not having enough time to do my existing responsibility and running on empty - being 'encouraged' to commit myself to a very lengthy time-consuming responsibility (once a month for 2 years!) so that I could 'expand time' and 'challenge my negativities'.
Being advised many many times by various leaders to always open my heart and say 'yes' (without first considering) to whatever activity/responsibility is asked of me in the SGI.
When expressing to a leader that the requirement for me to take on more responsibilities was making me feel sick and anxious at the thought of having even less time for myself and my family, that this could be a sign that I needed to 'trust, let go and open my heart to the activity' i.e take on even more!
We were always being advised about the necessity to lead 'balanced lives' as SGI members so that we could inspire others to practice. But I could never work out how that would be possible with the huge amount of meetings/activities we were expected to attend. Another example of 'doublespeak' I guess.
When reading what you have to say some examples of being told what to think spring to mind ...........
Being told as a leader that when you are exhausted and really feel that you have to devote a bit of time to yourself, then that is exactly the time you should 'dig deeper' and 'open your heart to others' - i.e try and do more home visits!
When I expressed my anxiety regarding not having enough time to do my existing responsibility and running on empty - being 'encouraged' to commit myself to a very lengthy time-consuming responsibility (once a month for 2 years!) so that I could 'expand time' and 'challenge my negativities'.
Being advised many many times by various leaders to always open my heart and say 'yes' (without first considering) to whatever activity/responsibility is asked of me in the SGI.
When expressing to a leader that the requirement for me to take on more responsibilities was making me feel sick and anxious at the thought of having even less time for myself and my family, that this could be a sign that I needed to 'trust, let go and open my heart to the activity' i.e take on even more!
We were always being advised about the necessity to lead 'balanced lives' as SGI members so that we could inspire others to practice. But I could never work out how that would be possible with the huge amount of meetings/activities we were expected to attend. Another example of 'doublespeak' I guess.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: February 18, 2012 08:12AM
Quote
holly_golightly
Thanks ScoobyDooby and Nichijew
When reading what you have to say some examples of being told what to think spring to mind ...........
Being told as a leader that when you are exhausted and really feel that you have to devote a bit of time to yourself, then that is exactly the time you should 'dig deeper' and 'open your heart to others' - i.e try and do more home visits!
When I expressed my anxiety regarding not having enough time to do my existing responsibility and running on empty - being 'encouraged' to commit myself to a very lengthy time-consuming responsibility (once a month for 2 years!) so that I could 'expand time' and 'challenge my negativities'.
Being advised many many times by various leaders to always open my heart and say 'yes' (without first considering) to whatever activity/responsibility is asked of me in the SGI.
When expressing to a leader that the requirement for me to take on more responsibilities was making me feel sick and anxious at the thought of having even less time for myself and my family, that this could be a sign that I needed to 'trust, let go and open my heart to the activity' i.e take on even more!
We were always being advised about the necessity to lead 'balanced lives' as SGI members so that we could inspire others to practice. But I could never work out how that would be possible with the huge amount of meetings/activities we were expected to attend. Another example of 'doublespeak' I guess.
Hi Holly! You weren't one of the chosen few [wealthy inflential members, famous musicians, or son or daughter of a top leader] who are exhorted to forego activities for the sake of their personal development? What you were, was merely a worker bee leader, a tasty orange who, once consumed, would have been discarded like a useless peel [your body and mind]. Some fifteen years after leaving the Gakkai, I enjoy a state of life unimagined by me during my many years within the organization. A solid family and homelife, respect and influence in the community, way more than adequate income, and abundant joy. The best years of your life are ahead of you. It really is up to you.
Nichijew
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.