@quiet one....right on, you are! The message always was you must determine never to abandon your faith, determine to practice with the SGI til the end of your time. The underside message, of course, is that ol' Fear Factor. A religion that serves up the Fear Factor, is no religion to me.

I find it interesting that you felt that a lot of members were not able to hide their dissatisfaction with the way things were heading. I've sensed that not so much, but did notice in the past year that the mandatory Ikeda Celebratory Videos were drawing more of a muted response, as opposed to people spontaneously breaking into happy applause at his video presence.

There seems to be less joyfulness, overall, in the air. Not so much love-bombing, at least where I've been at.

Congrats to you, quiet one. It's great to hear that your life changed for the better, indeed.

@Wakatta1...your list is great! I like especially "Singing "Forever Sensei" for the umpty millionth time and wondering if any of those "smiling people" truly were."

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Shavoy@Wakatta1...your[/email] list is great! I like especially "Singing "Forever Sensei" for the umpty millionth time and wondering if any of those "smiling people" truly were."

I liked that one, too. My teenaged son always comments on the photos of people in the WT with their forced smiles.

My this place has been very quiet...

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ScoobyDooby

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Shavoy@Wakatta1...your[/email] list is great! I like especially "Singing "Forever Sensei" for the umpty millionth time and wondering if any of those "smiling people" truly were."

I liked that one, too. My teenaged son always comments on the photos of people in the WT with their forced smiles.

My this place has been very quiet...

We've all rejoined the Soka Gakkai. We can only change it from within...................................NOT

Mark

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Re: The last detail

Back in the 70's there was a Jack Nicholsen movie called "The Last Detail". In it, two navy shore patrolmen are charged with taking a "kid" across the country to evenutally put him into Leavenworth prison.

At one point in the story, the "kid" meets an attractive girl who tells him she would like to "take him home with her" and as the story went on it turned out she just wanted to do this to Shakubuku him (knowing full well what he thought she meant).

This paired up pretty well with what I'd heard and seen in Japan years before where people (young gals included) that the end justified the means and that it was justifiable to draw people to meetings and to use whatever means necessary to get them to join because "you got a benefit from it".

Since many of the new arrivals claim to have twenty, twenty-five or more years in the practice, I'd lbe interested in hearing their experiences with "the end justifies the means" form of shakubuku. Any takers?

Wakatta1

Thank you for sharing this - [www.youtube.com]. The clip is a perfect synopsis of what it all boils down to.

Whether it be the old "NSA" or the "new" SGI-"x" (x=whatever country it happens to reside in), the formula remains unchanged: leave your critical faculties along with your shoes at the door. Enter, be overwhelmed by your temporary celebrity status as a prospective member, sit on the floor to perform the meditation ritual to a piece of paper hanging inside a box. Somebody will be there to help you through it, holding a gongyo book for you in one hand while chanting with the other close to their mouth while they themselves mispronounce the Japanese words in the process.

Sit back, if you can still feel your legs and enjoy the ensuing display of brainwashing. There will be a genki MC who will introduce you to the group with a thunderous applause following. Then there may be a song or two like "Higher Than The Sky" or "Have A Gohonzon" with people standing up and swinging their right arms back-n-forth (the modern day version is rappers & hip-hop dancing). This will quickly be followed by confirmation bias "experiences" about how the practice has transformed the lives of those who practice it (e.g., like leaving your car keys somewhere and miraculously finding them just when you needed them or overcoming that really bad bout of the flu quickly by practicing harder and challenging yourself more).

Last but not least, the moment they have all been waiting for: a VIP "senior" leader will dispense guidance which is actually nothing more than insipient meaningless cult-speak laced with Ikeda-gosho quotes spoken by an English-as-a-second-language speaker (an official organizational parrot). Be very careful now, don't ask any difficult questions or appeal to reason or logic, lest you quickly be shown the door by some ever watchful naziesque Japanese obaasans. You can, however, easily impress with lots of vigorous nodding, smiling, joining in with the laughter and occasional cheers (AA-O, Washoii, or whatever the current slogan may happen to be) and quickly learning to master the stern constipation look when the serious part of the guidance talk is reached toward the end.

Just when you think it is all over, you will then stand up and lock arm-in-arm (pun intended) singing "Forever Sensei" while wildly swaying back-n-forth (example here: [www.youtube.com]). Be sure to check out and enjoy all the ear-to-ear grins amongst the more wild-eyed members around you, of which some might even have tears in their eyes.

You will now be swarmed by members and if you are really lucky, meet the "senior" leader (who will of course be sizing both you and your sponsor up). Soon thereafter, following a donation of course, you will receive your gohonzon, purchase your bustudan with necessary accessories (candles, candle holders, plant holders, incense, incense holder and burner, little bell and ringer, daily guidance book, juzu-beads of your color and material of choice, gongyo book, gosho, and - highly encouraged - optional framed smiling Ikeda photo). Just when you thought you were done with buying things, they will constantly be home visiting you or calling you to attend meetings, volunteer your time and effort for all manners of free labor (greeting members at events, helping with parking, guarding the community centers/kaikans - byakuren, soka-han and gajokai, respectively) and hitting you up for subscriptions to the world tribune or sgi-graphic (a beautiful full color Ikeda fan magazine printed on glossy archival paper).

The official organizational propaganda newspaper, however, is mandatory. In fact, if you have a family, you are encouraged to have every single member receive their own paid issue. You and every member of your family will then be divided into your appropriate group: Men's Division, Woman's Division, Young Men's Div., Young Woman's Div. (cut-off line is generally when you get married) and for those toddlers there is the wonderful Junior Pioneers Group (where they can go to get their own age appropriate affirmations done). Oh, and don't forget the lifelong monthly-seasonal zaimu campaigns where all members are expected to literally give until it hurts (the amount you give is directly proportional to the amount of fortune you will receive). Don't be discouraged if when you first start practicing you experience great difficulties, because this is only the dirt being washed out of that old dirty garden hose (which is your life) before the clean, refreshing, water begins to flow and sparkle all over your life with benefits.

If you happen to be a "fortune baby" (born into the practice by parents who are already members), then you can luckily bypass all of the above, do not go to jail (even though you are already in it but don't yet realize it) and collect your $200 at "Go" for your fortune bank in the gakkai monopoly game of life. If you don't continue your practice or practice hard and sincerely enough, however, one day your fortune bank will be all used up and you will have nowhere else to go but back to the organization. They are experts at appeals to adverse consequences when all else fails.

Yes, that pretty much sums it all up, indeed. Really enjoying this (now) 340 page well deserved thread about the infamous gakkai antics.

Thank you for your time in reading my long (first) post.

I've actually seen the "actual poop" of the power of the SGI. I keep finding more shakabuku cards in city trash cans.

A testament to SGI brainwashing is that they can't see through that singing "Forever Sensei" is mandatory. They don't question the very idea to why waste time singing a pointless song but yet get defensive by cult accusations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2012 11:17AM by KR.

I know that they tend to stress the more substantive shakubukus now, but I find that the organization has and always will ultimately appeal to a specific spectrum of individuals: the sick-feeble, weak minded, ignorant lost soul type of people who are destined to be followers on one end and the other more minimally educated, but with their own psychological pathologies (in some cases power hungry), who are probably destined to become some sort of "leader" on the other end. Some are also in it for cultural reasons (ethnicity, family tradition) and yet others are in it because they are obsessed with asian things. People who stay with it are either those who have never known of a life without it and/or come from or are in a dysfunctional life of their own. Some of the leaders that I've met are more screwed up and delusional than even the most loony (but harmless) ordinary members.

The literal meaning of shakubuku = break and subdue. Even though they'll claim that is in reference to "evil", I maintain that that says it all. In that spirit, the well seasoned gakkai mommas will go trash can fishing to retrieve the unsoiled proselytizing pamphlets and recycle them.

They are not brainwashed, because in their eyes they are merely carrying out the mandate of the Rissho Ankoku Ron. This is also their justification for such blatantly absurd outreach efforts such as the Ikeda-King-Gandhi exhibits. If that doesn't open their eyes and stimulate them to some of their own critical thinking, I don't think anything ever will. It's not them, it's everyone else, because they have also been blessed with the Kaimoku Sho (the irony here is just incredible).

Hitch:

Don't be so harsh and judgmental cocnerning members of groups called "cults".

In my experience anyone can be recruited, given the right timing and set of circumstances. And cults are typically both deceptive and manipulative regarding the recruitment and retention of members.

It's not just the "sick-feeble, weak minded, ignorant and lost soul type" that can potentially become cult members.

I have deprogrammed five medical doctors, a psychologist and numerous hightly intelligent, well educated types, that were nevertheless successfully recruited by cults.

Do you really know what "brainwashed" means? It's actually a subtle process, which is often called "coercive persuasion" or "thought reform".

See [www.culteducation.com]

And also see [www.culteducation.com]

These are papers written by experts in the fields of sociology and psychology about the process.

Being "brainwashed" is notably different than education, advertising, propganda and indoctrination.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This chart by a psychologist delineates the defferences in these various forms of persuasion.

In my opinion SGI is a destructive cult that uses thought reform (commonly called "brainwashing") to manipulate and control people.

Hitch summed things up quite well...KR finding shakabuku cards in the trash reminds me of the 80's when gohonzons would end up in the trash in droves.

Rick Ross's post brought to mind the fact that talented, smart people, e.g. Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, etc. are sworn Ikeda disciples. Of course, one can look at Mr. Cruise and Scientology as well.

Ahhhhh, it's all for one purpose these days. The Eternal Veneration of Daisaku Ikeda.

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Ahhhhh, it's all for one purpose these days. The Eternal Veneration of Daisaku Ikeda.

"The Eternal Veneration of Daisaku Ikeda's wallet" is what you mean....

I would actual agree with the points both Hitch and the rrmoderator have made. I left the church years ago long before I joined SGI. I flirted with Islam (Nation of Islam BTW) for a while and decided that it wasn't for me. Still I have no real animosity towards those religions outside of dealing with the atypical zealotry associated with both. With both religions I don't feel betrayed by anyone or have felt lied to. Even the self proclaimed Christians who know my story aren't pushing me on going back to church.

SGI however is a much different menace. Unlike the NOI, I dove right into SGI. At one point I believed I was dedicating myself to a noble cause. And little by little, like any former SGI member on this board, I start having specific doubts about what you are in it for. Like, this isn't the Buddhism, I once read about. People tell you they are chanting for a Lexus, you ask yourself "is this really the Buddhism I read about?"

You carry your doubts until it reaches it's threshold and by that time you realize that you have been lied too. It takes a little getting over with. I only been in SGI for 2 years but I have the greatest amount of sympathy for those who come into the truth. I hits a lot harder. They have a hard time coming to grips that they dedicated a 3+ years of there lives to something they truly believed in...and it was a big lie.

Since I left SGI last year the anger still festers. I try to forget about it but if one still wants to practice in the Nichiren tradition it's a unique challenge. Overcoming the SGI dogma and the blatant bastardization of the religion,

@ Shavoy - Funny that you had mentioned that because I had actually made the commitment of practicing without one, my Japanese terminology is off so I won't say it but, in order for me to move on with practice, I had to throw my SGI gohonzon in the trash.

rrmoderator - Thank you for your reply and links. Nsa-sgi does fit better under the "thought reform" category. My usage of the term "brainwashing" is that I equate it to "mind and thought control." Perhaps because sociology and psychology are some of the more imprecise sciences, semantics can sometimes be confusing (at least for me). "Thought reform" and "thought control" are pretty much the same to me. The type of "brainwashing" that occurs in nsa-sgi, however, is a very soft version though.

My comments about the "sick-feeble, weak minded, ignorant and lost soul type" were meant to apply to those who ultimately stay. I myself fell under the "ignorant" and family tradition categories I mentioned earlier. Had I not educated myself (it wasn't easy and it was a slow process) and chose to remain willfully ignorant, I'd still be there smiling with the rest of them. Having seen the organization at work in both the U.S. and Japan, I think those labels definitely apply to the types of members I've personally encountered. Well educated and successful people fall under the influence of cults all the time (Aum Shinrikyo is a dangerous example), but I think that if you dig deep enough you will eventually find some dysfunctional or disaffected history lurking in their background.

Sgi-nsa is full of celebrities (Herbie Hancock, Patrick Duffy, Tina Turner, Roberto Baggio, Orlando Bloom and there are many more in Japan). To me, celebrities are just ordinary people, with the same tendencies and frailties, perhaps even more susceptible than the rest of us, given their unique situation, circumstances and demands. It's also kind of sad, because the organization takes advantage of them even more so (financially and using them by fallacy of association to recruit new members).

Shavoy - Yes, I've also seen gohonzons in trash cans. Back in the 80's nsa was all numbers over quality and members would routinely shakabuku borderline homeless people. The kind of people who definitely needed a lot more than just a gohonzon (some needed to be institutionalized, detoxed, etc.). On some occasions, local leaders even had to scour regional antique dealers in order to buy back gohonzons that were sold.

KR - I've had some interesting experiences getting into logical arguments with other members and leaders over the years. They either get angry and defensive or resort to special pleading replete with reference page numbers to the gosho zenshu.