Quote
Shavoy
Hello, KR....I find the fact that they are still sending you these talking points, despite the fact that they know how you feel about the whole thing, mind-boggling. I let my subscription to the pubs go a long time ago---good thing I haven't missed much---it's only getting worse. But then, go figure, right?

They sending me emails is due a total lack of organization on the chapter/region level. Truth be told SGIer's in my neck of the woods don't really seem that motivated which was part of the dilemma on quitting. Places like this forum with abundant horror stories will make you cringe in disbelief but in my experience, I can only say that 5% who were in SGI really bought into the hype of Ikeda and the Mentor/Disciple thing. Then again, life in Mid-City, USA is a lot more different than Japan.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2012 07:09AM by KR.

KR, this comes as another surprise for me, a good surprise, to know that such a low percentage are slurping contentedly on the kool-aid. Life in Mid-City is sure different from Japan. It's interesting, too, to note that along with the low number, SGI-ers don't have the fervent motivation. Fascinating stuff!

Quote
KR
I can only say that 5% who were in SGI really bought into the hype of Ikeda and the Mentor/Disciple thing. Then again, life in Mid-City, USA is a lot more different than Japan.

That is pretty much by design by SGI-USA.
Ikeda and crew saw the backlash from pressing the SGI propaganda too hard in the USA years ago, so they cut it back. They don't really trust "Americans" anyway in senior positions, as many have made clear.

So Ikeda and SGI made SGI-USA similar to other large orgs, in that for the majority of members, its not too demanding...as long as you pay your DUES. SGI-USA is mainly about collecting those dues, and selling SGI stuff.

SGI-USA only wants a small % at the top to be really into the Ikeda thing. Those folks donate all their spare time to doing all the work.
But the majority of the SGI-USA members are really there just for generating income for SGI-USA.

This is why SGI-international is so brilliant. They have made more billions that many other sects.
If SGI-USA pushed all of their members too hard, they would get a backlash.

The SGI-USA corporation just uses the larger base for dues and income, and burn and churn more dedicated members, with new recruits and fresh meat, as they say.
That is much more profitable than demanding everyone in the sect be totally dedicated.
It seems SGI-USA is like a pyramid, with more demands placed the higher you go.

But if a person wants to stay at the bottom and give Ikeda-SGI their money, he'll gladly take it.
This is one thing that makes SGI-USA much more sophisticated than smaller sects, but other sects do this as well with various front-groups.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2012 11:35AM by The Anticult.

Shavoy, KR, Anticult,

These posts make me think of a discussion that I had with a friend over the Christmas holidays. She and I had been SGI members together in our hometown, some years ago. She moved to another state a few years ago, and is still involved in an SGI group there. We talked about SGI...and this thread. I asked her, "Do you really believe all the hype about Ikeda...that he's your mentor? Do you really think that you need him as your mentor to reach enlightenment?"

She said, "No, I kind of ignore that talk."

I asked, "Then why do you stay in SGI?"

She answered, "Oh, I like the people in my group. I like to chant, and it's nice to have people to do it with. A lot of people in my chapter feel the same way."

She does do a lot of activities for SGI, and does contribute money, and probably a lot of her friends in that chapter do too. So Anticult is right -- SGI doesn't need them to believe in Ikeda as super- mentor and savior.

I think a lot of SGI members see SGI as just, "Hang out with my friends and chant." I might have done so for longer too if I'd felt more of a bond with the people in my group. Knowing what I know now, though, I couldn't stay in SGI, even if I did find a group of members that I loved. I could not give my time and money to an organization that essentially exists to provide wealth and adulation for a billionaire.

My friend thinks that she can be an SGI member and not be affected by SGI's manipulations. I used to think that too...then when I began to question SGI, I found myself panicking that terrible things would happen to me because of my "disloyalty" and "slander." I thought that I hadn't bought into SGI's lies and manipulations that something bad would happen to me if I did not support SGI 100%. I was wrong. I'd taken in that notion -- and not even realized it.

I tried to explain this to my friend. She became defensive and said, "I'm not you! I'm happy to be in SGI; it's not hurting me in any way." I had to drop the subject. Clearly, I wasn't going to get anywhere. She was not ready to hear this, nor was she interested in looking at this thread. At least she knows it's here, if she ever is ready to question SGI. I remember how I was back in my SGI days.

It's hard to face that you have been wrong about something -- for years, or that you've been manipulated by people you trusted. If you've got friends in a group, it can be hard to leave your friends. If you've been actively involved in SGI, it's taken over much of your free time. Just walking away from all that can be difficult. What DO you do with all the time and energy that you put into SGI? The SGI leaders know all this, of course. It's a fiendishly clever system.

Quote
tsukimoto
Shavoy, KR, Anticult,

These posts make me think of a discussion that I had with a friend over the Christmas holidays. She and I had been SGI members together in our hometown, some years ago. She moved to another state a few years ago, and is still involved in an SGI group there. We talked about SGI...and this thread. I asked her, "Do you really believe all the hype about Ikeda...that he's your mentor? Do you really think that you need him as your mentor to reach enlightenment?"

She said, "No, I kind of ignore that talk."

I asked, "Then why do you stay in SGI?"

She answered, "Oh, I like the people in my group. I like to chant, and it's nice to have people to do it with. A lot of people in my chapter feel the same way."

She does do a lot of activities for SGI, and does contribute money, and probably a lot of her friends in that chapter do too. So Anticult is right -- SGI doesn't need them to believe in Ikeda as super- mentor and savior.

I think a lot of SGI members see SGI as just, "Hang out with my friends and chant." I might have done so for longer too if I'd felt more of a bond with the people in my group. Knowing what I know now, though, I couldn't stay in SGI, even if I did find a group of members that I loved. I could not give my time and money to an organization that essentially exists to provide wealth and adulation for a billionaire.

My friend thinks that she can be an SGI member and not be affected by SGI's manipulations. I used to think that too...then when I began to question SGI, I found myself panicking that terrible things would happen to me because of my "disloyalty" and "slander." I thought that I hadn't bought into SGI's lies and manipulations that something bad would happen to me if I did not support SGI 100%. I was wrong. I'd taken in that notion -- and not even realized it.

I tried to explain this to my friend. She became defensive and said, "I'm not you! I'm happy to be in SGI; it's not hurting me in any way." I had to drop the subject. Clearly, I wasn't going to get anywhere. She was not ready to hear this, nor was she interested in looking at this thread. At least she knows it's here, if she ever is ready to question SGI. I remember how I was back in my SGI days.

It's hard to face that you have been wrong about something -- for years, or that you've been manipulated by people you trusted. If you've got friends in a group, it can be hard to leave your friends. If you've been actively involved in SGI, it's taken over much of your free time. Just walking away from all that can be difficult. What DO you do with all the time and energy that you put into SGI? The SGI leaders know all this, of course. It's a fiendishly clever system.

tsukimoto, did your friend mention anything about getting benefits, beyond being with her group and enjoying the chanting? There has to be something more to it, I would think, that keeps her there. She must feel she is growing spiritually or something. The proverbial Happiness Carrot.

I agree. It is very hard. It's like a betrayal. And it's sad, too. Playing vunerable people for fools is one of the worst causes of all.

tsukimoto, you always come to mind when I think of life after SGI. You obviously have not succumbed or been devoured by that Hell of Incessant Suffering. It's been an inspiration for me, you and the other great posters here.

@Shavoy

You said ".... the hell of incessant sufferings".

Once I got free of SGI/NSA I realized that the hell of incessant sufferings was actually inside SGI, not outside of it.

- Eternal meetings, legs aching while you chant, and the words of leaders ringing in your ears that they are aching because of your weak faith. Only if you chant longer and longer will that turn around.
- Dealing with WD members whose only goal in life is to play "kitchen politics" with other members, and trying to give guidance to them despite the knowledge that you've been "tuned out" because they are great chums with mister kobayashi or Mrs Nakamura. Geesh!
- Reading WT, Seikyo Times and the "mandatory" lecture on the sutra and wondering what exactly the goal was in reading and rereading the same tired out rhetoric.
- Attending 2 or 3 meetings a week to "encourage" members (translation, press them for more participation and for sure more zaimu).
- Singing forever sensei for the umpty millionth time and wondering if any of those "smiling people" truly were.
- Knowing the >real< truth about some leaders and listening to them acting all pious. Watching those people over the years and seeing no real changes in their lives besides their increase in age.
- Making the SGI propaganda match up with the real world - "evil priests?" how about "evil senior leaders" instead. The priests made no bones about their loyalties, couldn't say as much as with the leaders. Imagine my shock when I heard Mr. Williams was out. Palace intrigues and wheels within wheels. I wonder if it was like that living in the Kremlin.

It is like getting caught in a spider web. Each thing you do just gets you snagged deeper and deeper into the game. Things that seemed pretty straightforward and honest suddenly become shady and it is no longer possible to just come out and say something directly without treading on someone higher up's toes.

Like Shrek says "better out than in I always say"

Wakatta1

That is planned Social Engineering by SGI-USA.
It really is.
After all, in Japan, there are planned socially engineered SGI towns, right? People live and breathe SGI in those areas, that is the mothership.

Of course that doesn't work in the USA, and the west.
So SGI-USA studied what works, and what works, is having a type of social community group.
After all, a lot of people go to various churches for the social connections too, with only a few hours of commitment a week.

Many regular folks in SGI in the west, it is like a social club. They meet at eachothers places, chant, joke, recruit, etc. They invite people, implying its a "party" or almost a dating event. Then try to get them into SGI chanting.

But this didn't happen by accident. That is planned by SGI-USA, that model is planned. And not by Ikeda either, he would not understand that. But they hired smart people to design the SGI-USA structure.
In a sense, its almost like Amway.
Invite people to your home, and then sell them stuff. But of course its different than Amway too.

So a person might say, well then SGI is not really a cult, due to its low demand on those people. But one has to look at the ENTIRE SGI picture, not just the isolated chanting group.

As at the same time, the senior SGI people are on the lookout for people for a deeper involvement, and "promote" them to run the office, and load them up with work. Those are the people who start to get REALLY exploited by SGI and start to believe the Ikeda junk.
They are the ones to give SGI all of their money.

So SGI is a complex organization, much more sophisticated than most. They are actually more intelligent than a Scientology, who does drive everyone really hard. SGI is smarter. They have designed an entry level SGI membership, where its not that demanding.
- pay your SGI dues.
- recruit your friends for fake SGI karma.
- give SGI money
- do free labor for SGI, etc.

That is merely the entry level position, and then the SGI leaders poach people from that level, and move them up the ladder.
So it is a brilliant org, as they can say...hey we are not a cult, its low demand.
But in fact a lot more is going on, as proven in these threads and elsewhere.
So the meeting groups, are the bottom rung of the ladder, for revenue generation, and are only a tiny part of SGI.

All the power is in Japan.
Even SGI-UK, the 40 million from SGI is totally controlled from SGI-Japan, as shown here.
SGI-UK Charity Number 1104491
[forum.culteducation.com]

Also, most cults do not take people off mailing lists deliberately, as its a way to keep a foot in the door.
Sometimes, one has to send a cease/desist letter to stop the mailings.

Quote
The Anticult
That is planned Social Engineering by SGI-USA.
It really is.
After all, in Japan, there are planned socially engineered SGI towns, right? People live and breathe SGI in those areas, that is the mothership.

Of course that doesn't work in the USA, and the west.
So SGI-USA studied what works, and what works, is having a type of social community group.
After all, a lot of people go to various churches for the social connections too, with only a few hours of commitment a week.

Many regular folks in SGI in the west, it is like a social club. They meet at eachothers places, chant, joke, recruit, etc. They invite people, implying its a "party" or almost a dating event. Then try to get them into SGI chanting.

But this didn't happen by accident. That is planned by SGI-USA, that model is planned. And not by Ikeda either, he would not understand that. But they hired smart people to design the SGI-USA structure.
In a sense, its almost like Amway.
Invite people to your home, and then sell them stuff. But of course its different than Amway too.

So a person might say, well then SGI is not really a cult, due to its low demand on those people. But one has to look at the ENTIRE SGI picture, not just the isolated chanting group.

As at the same time, the senior SGI people are on the lookout for people for a deeper involvement, and "promote" them to run the office, and load them up with work. Those are the people who start to get REALLY exploited by SGI and start to believe the Ikeda junk.
They are the ones to give SGI all of their money.

So SGI is a complex organization, much more sophisticated than most. They are actually more intelligent than a Scientology, who does drive everyone really hard. SGI is smarter. They have designed an entry level SGI membership, where its not that demanding.
- pay your SGI dues.
- recruit your friends for fake SGI karma.
- give SGI money
- do free labor for SGI, etc.

That is merely the entry level position, and then the SGI leaders poach people from that level, and move them up the ladder.
So it is a brilliant org, as they can say...hey we are not a cult, its low demand.
But in fact a lot more is going on, as proven in these threads and elsewhere.
So the meeting groups, are the bottom rung of the ladder, for revenue generation, and are only a tiny part of SGI.

All the power is in Japan.
Even SGI-UK, the 40 million from SGI is totally controlled from SGI-Japan, as shown here.
SGI-UK Charity Number 1104491
[forum.culteducation.com]

Nothing but truth in that statement. I was actually promoted to a vice chapter leader and immediately found the demands over burdening. At first, I had no qualms with "helping the cause" but as my so-called "fortune" was increasing, they started making outrageous demands on time.

Quote
tsukimoto
Shavoy, KR, Anticult,

These posts make me think of a discussion that I had with a friend over the Christmas holidays. She and I had been SGI members together in our hometown, some years ago. She moved to another state a few years ago, and is still involved in an SGI group there. We talked about SGI...and this thread. I asked her, "Do you really believe all the hype about Ikeda...that he's your mentor? Do you really think that you need him as your mentor to reach enlightenment?"

She said, "No, I kind of ignore that talk."

I asked, "Then why do you stay in SGI?"

She answered, "Oh, I like the people in my group. I like to chant, and it's nice to have people to do it with. A lot of people in my chapter feel the same way."

She does do a lot of activities for SGI, and does contribute money, and probably a lot of her friends in that chapter do too. So Anticult is right -- SGI doesn't need them to believe in Ikeda as super- mentor and savior.

I've contemplated staying because of the camaraderie but the overriding decision for leaving was that, next to the money, I wasn't all too comfortable with SGI being affiliated with New Kiemeto. As far as being a Democrat or a Republican, I have a preference but I won't hesitate to criticize the preferred party for dropping the ball. As cliche-ish as it may sound, it's the American way so it's appropriate to approach politics with a little cynicism - religion, it's not. Religious leaders are to be held to a higher moral standard than politicians. In politics there is the looser expectation of moral principles being compromised the temptation is there with lobbyist and cronyism. SGI and PI are closer to Japanese politics than Pat Robertson's Christian Right. They may have considerable influence on the Republican party but they are no where close to representing the huge voting block SGI has on NK.

Since this information wasn't disclosed from inception nor does it rarely show up in any of the American publications one who is mindful of politics couldn't help but feel a little bamboozled. Henceforth, I was left with no decision but to leave. It's purely on principals...

Quote
tsukimoto
Shavoy, KR, Anticult,

These posts make me think of a discussion that I had with a friend over the Christmas holidays. She and I had been SGI members together in our hometown, some years ago. She moved to another state a few years ago, and is still involved in an SGI group there. We talked about SGI...and this thread. I asked her, "Do you really believe all the hype about Ikeda...that he's your mentor? Do you really think that you need him as your mentor to reach enlightenment?"

She said, "No, I kind of ignore that talk."

I asked, "Then why do you stay in SGI?"

She answered, "Oh, I like the people in my group. I like to chant, and it's nice to have people to do it with. A lot of people in my chapter feel the same way."

She does do a lot of activities for SGI, and does contribute money, and probably a lot of her friends in that chapter do too. So Anticult is right -- SGI doesn't need them to believe in Ikeda as super- mentor and savior.

I think a lot of SGI members see SGI as just, "Hang out with my friends and chant." I might have done so for longer too if I'd felt more of a bond with the people in my group. Knowing what I know now, though, I couldn't stay in SGI, even if I did find a group of members that I loved. I could not give my time and money to an organization that essentially exists to provide wealth and adulation for a billionaire.

My friend thinks that she can be an SGI member and not be affected by SGI's manipulations. I used to think that too...then when I began to question SGI, I found myself panicking that terrible things would happen to me because of my "disloyalty" and "slander." I thought that I hadn't bought into SGI's lies and manipulations that something bad would happen to me if I did not support SGI 100%. I was wrong. I'd taken in that notion -- and not even realized it.

I tried to explain this to my friend. She became defensive and said, "I'm not you! I'm happy to be in SGI; it's not hurting me in any way." I had to drop the subject. Clearly, I wasn't going to get anywhere. She was not ready to hear this, nor was she interested in looking at this thread. At least she knows it's here, if she ever is ready to question SGI. I remember how I was back in my SGI days.

It's hard to face that you have been wrong about something -- for years, or that you've been manipulated by people you trusted. If you've got friends in a group, it can be hard to leave your friends. If you've been actively involved in SGI, it's taken over much of your free time. Just walking away from all that can be difficult. What DO you do with all the time and energy that you put into SGI? The SGI leaders know all this, of course. It's a fiendishly clever system.

This is a very interesting discussion. Towards the end of my involvement with SGI, I felt like there were many members walking around feeling uncomfortable with the way SGI was and had become. Me too. I had practiced for 33 years, and my whole life was SGI. My friends and family life was all SGI. It was so difficult to leave because of that. Although for a few years I knew things were not right, I went through the motions because I didn't know what else to do. I had very few friends on the outside.

When I finally broke away, it was hard. But my life rapidly changed for the better. Sometimes (often) I miss the people that I practiced with, but actually now I feel sorry for them. Probably there are many people who would like to leave also, but stay because they don't want to leave their friends. And of course there is the fear instilled by SGI. It took me a while to realize that both good and bad things happen to members as well as non-members. SGI tries to say that your life will fall apart without them. But we are all examples of that not being true.