And another thought about the Gakkai -- I think it has taught me that whatever path I choose next, it must be a path with heart. As, in my opinion, the Gakkai way, at its core, does not have a true heart of compassion. As for myself, I have too much tendency to live in my head (like to study and read and think a lot) and not enough tendency to love and connect.

And I want a path that will get me OUTSIDE and back to the earth. None of this hanging around in meetings all the damn time! :)

Good morning all!

Another digression from me. I am having problems thinking about certain things that I have categorized as "warning signs" having learned from the Gakkai BUT which it seems to me that many religions do and the key thing is to distinguish between the negative expression of them and the positive expression of them:

- Asking for money.
OK: One request at services for contribution (passing the plate, haha). One request in email or newsletter for contribution. NO one-on-one pressure for contribution is acceptable.
BAD: Asking for money too much, too large of a contribution, too often, with too much personal one-on-one contact.

- Asking for your time.
OK: Request to attend services passively, i.e. in newsletter. After all there can be lots of potential activities in a newsletter. The problem is not so much the availability of activities as how often YOU are expected to attend.
BAD: Personal request and pressure to attend LOTS of meetings (maybe more than 1x / week).

- Take what you want and leave the rest.
New age thing. It's a good philosophy but in general if there are things you are not comfortable with you should continue to be aware of them NOT sweep them under your mental rug as this implies them to do. Maybe this is an early warning sign that you should keep your eye -- what are the things you "LEAVE."

I have been reading a lot on the other threads of this board and it has been a real eye-opener. All I can say is that this time around I am not going to make my choice of a "sangha" hastily - I will learn to be OK with working on my practice on my own and I'm not going to rush off and join anything right this moment. In this case, it seems to me, that for awhile at least, looking for the path IS the path. :)

Peace,
sunmoonstars

Quote
sunmoonstars
Good morning all!

Another digression from me. I am having problems thinking about certain things that I have categorized as "warning signs" having learned from the Gakkai BUT which it seems to me that many religions do and the key thing is to distinguish between the negative expression of them and the positive expression of them:

- Asking for money.
OK: One request at services for contribution (passing the plate, haha). One request in email or newsletter for contribution. NO one-on-one pressure for contribution is acceptable.
BAD: Asking for money too much, too large of a contribution, too often, with too much personal one-on-one contact.

- Asking for your time.
OK: Request to attend services passively, i.e. in newsletter. After all there can be lots of potential activities in a newsletter. The problem is not so much the availability of activities as how often YOU are expected to attend.
BAD: Personal request and pressure to attend LOTS of meetings (maybe more than 1x / week).

- Take what you want and leave the rest.
New age thing. It's a good philosophy but in general if there are things you are not comfortable with you should continue to be aware of them NOT sweep them under your mental rug as this implies them to do. Maybe this is an early warning sign that you should keep your eye -- what are the things you "LEAVE."

I have been reading a lot on the other threads of this board and it has been a real eye-opener. All I can say is that this time around I am not going to make my choice of a "sangha" hastily - I will learn to be OK with working on my practice on my own and I'm not going to rush off and join anything right this moment. In this case, it seems to me, that for awhile at least, looking for the path IS the path. :)

Peace,
sunmoonstars

Hello, sunmoonstars!

There never seemed to be huge pressure at all to contribute to the SGI until the last year...when they instituted and have been really really really encouraging people to start an auto-deduction from their accounts every month. Then comes the membership cards...which right now members can "monitor" or "change/increase" how much they want to give..

RED FLAG ALERT!

Something must be really amiss in Japan if they've begun putting this kind of pressure on members.

The net worth of Soka Gakkai was put at close to 200 billion in the early 90's in an article in the Far Eastern Economic Review. Even a low estimate of their worth today would have to double that. This makes them the wealthiest non-governmental body in the world and something that anyone who has an interest in this should think about.

The red flag has been waving for 20 years now.

To me, the problem is not that SGI asks for money, since all religious organizations do that, many quite aggressively. To me, the red flags are these:

1. SGI ties financial contribution with benefit, usually financial. I can't tell you how many "experiences" I've heard where someone gave a big contribution to SGI, and then they somehow came into some unexpected financial windfall...an insurance claim was finally settled in their favor, they got a raise that they hadn't expected, sold artwork that they had created for more than they thought they could get, were awarded a substantial scholarship, things like that. It leads members to think that something similar will happen to them, if they make a generous donation. If the donor gives big, doesn't get that windfall? Well, the leaders can say that it wasn't their karma, or they didn't give with the right attitude.

In this thread, one poster, a young man without much money, spent money that he didn't have to buy a plane ticket to one of the big SGI conventions. His leaders encouraged him to think that this would improve his financial fortune. Well, it didn't. After returning from the convention, the young man ended up homeless, and of course, the SGI members who urged him to spend this money did nothing to help him.

There was an experience on one of the pro-SGI websites, also discussed here. This young man donated his emergency fund to SGI. After the donation, this fever that he had been suffering from for a long time cooled -- medical miracle here. Oh, and the guy also got a good car, somehow -- someone gave it to him, or else just gave him a really good deal, I forget which.

2. Red flag number two is that SGI does not tell members what is done with the money that they contribute. Leaders give you the impression that you need to contribute, or the electricity in the community centers will be turned off, when SGI is in fact incredibly wealthy, owning an extensive portfolio of stocks, and expensive real estate. Where exactly do your donations go? SGI will never tell you.

3. If SGI's not asking for money, they're asking for your time. There is tremendous pressure on members to do loads of free work for SGI -- paperwork, planning meetings, cleaning and painting the community centers, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2011 08:50AM by tsukimoto.

I have chosen not to participate in the special zaimu campaign for the 2nd year in a row. I have been able to maintain the same job for over one year now and even got a raise. My industry is quite challenged, so I am happy with this outcome. And aside from finances, my health has been pretty good and things are going well for the family.

I know of 3 experiences so far (in my small circle) of negative effects to those that are putting their all into trying to collect donations and to give all their extra cash as a donation. From car accidents to loss of job, and another one that simply is okay with his status of always being broke. Through chanting he realized it was okay and lessened his suffering, I guess. Doesn't sound like gaining much fortune to me and it is no fun to always be broke. But I guess he will pretend it is okay so that he feels he got a benefit somehow.

Another friend asked the interesting question: what does the SGI do for the members? They take and take constantly; take members time, take members money. But what do they give back? They don't have any qualms about taking from people that are already struggling financially. It's okay to still take their money.

Cruel . . . . . is the only word that comes to mind.

Imagine how much worse it is in Japan where you have thousands of members living within a short distance from you! And, remember, in Japan social cohesion is paramount, breaking solidarity within your group is akin to shitting on your own family.

I'm going to see a friend of mine who was a head quarters chief, now he's not - since 24 years. He remembers the money collected from the members being sent to the joint headquarters and there would never be any sort of accounting. Stories abound on the net about Ikeda squandering millions of dollars building his own legacy. Anyone offering their hard earned cash in SGI is tantamount to investing in STUPIDITY. I myself have heard these stories first hand. In France they bought up some very nice chateaus. Here in Canada they have a huge chunk of real estate just north of Toronto - bet it's worth many, many tens of millions. Once again, the Gakkai's worth in the early 90's was pegged at 180 billion. How much is it today? Why don't they just divest themselves of a little of that if they're going through a rough patch? Better to gouge gullible members. Keep your money! Enjoy the fruits of your own labor and donate money where you think it will really do some good.

Happy Memorial Day to everyone!

When Tsukimoto talked about how all religious organizations solicit funds from their flock, it reminded me of back in the 70's with Oral Roberts. He had two books out then, which were heavy on tithing and reassuring his followers that with their donations, they were planting the seed for financial protection and prosperity. It was called Seed of something--don't remember. But I believe he tied it into a bible passage, "if ye have faith the size of a mustard seed..." Once again, I don't remember that verbatim, but the idea was give, double your give, triple your give and the Lord will provide!


And of course, there were testimonials to that, similar to experiences given by SGI members.

@bribri, you reminded again of how the cultural structure in Japan is a perfect environment for people to stay attached to the Gakkai and never leave. Also, is that real estate near Toronto have an community center on it?

@backnforth, thanks for sharing the reality that yes, people really do have fortune, without the SGI!

Hi Shavoy,

Yes, the property near Toronto has a huge center on it worth millions. But in reality these are only a drop in the bucket of their investments. One of the biggest money makers is the SGI run cemetery and funeral services in Japan. I believe they also have a major share in an international Bank and the Mitsubishi corporation. Keep in mind, the gakkai has been able to profit mightily because of their political arm, which has been able to control certain government ministries over the last 40 years.

As far as cults go, such as the church of scientology, the moonies and even the mormons, the wealth of SGI is far beyond what these groups can ever dream of. There was even an article several years ago, when Japan was in a bad economic state, that speculated about a project to build a massive pyramid financed by the Gakkai. It was thought that such a investment like this would help to take Japan out of its depression. However, to be fair, nothing more was heard of it.

Ultimately the Gakkai will fail and become a mere shadow of itself. Your President Lincoln said it best, "...you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time."

That's because SGI doesn't follow Nichiren's teachings. They twist and pervert the teachings. Nichiren made it clear to not be attached to FAME and FORTUNE. Nichiren refuted other schools of Buddhism and other religions(because of their faith in something outside of themselves) just as people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris do today. He used different terminology but if you look at the WHY of it, it was similar(for being in feudal Japan 800 years ago). SGI protects Christianity and they won't debunk the bible like they are supposed to if they are going to call themselves Nichiren Buddhists. They won't say that Islam(the religion, not the people) should be wiped off the face of the earth. Pure Land Buddhism is basically an asian form of Christianity and Nichiren wanted it wiped off the face of the earth. I don't see the difference and I don't see anything wrong with that when anything aside from Atheistic philosophy is destroying the world(or I should say atheistic philosophy that respects life).