Okay, I made it up to page 261 and now I need a break -- since I am getting a little obsessive with reading all of this stuff, haha. Sorry for the repeated posts, but I just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone's posts, especially doubtful and backnforth. It's so therapeutic to hear others' experiences especially of those who don't want to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" so to speak. :)

A couple of other thoughts -- someone posted about the way districts were split up, and not allowing to be in the district with your friends, etc. What a reminder! I had completely forgotten that this happened to me! And how upset I was at the time. Looking back, this really seems like cruel behavior, especially to people who are just getting started with a practice. (I think I had been chanting only a year when this happened). It really seems like the kinder thing to do would be to let people choose their own groups, and if redistribution of members was needed, to ask for volunteers to move around. It seems like a really harsh way to treat your members when you think about it.

Also... someone posted a link to one of the SGI "resource" sites and I watched one of recent the Linda Johnson videos for WD, just out of curiosity. BOY. Having now attended other Buddhist meetings it really strikes me that it is VERY different. All of this emphasis on WINNING. It just seems, well, really kind of shallow actually. Also of course lots of references to Ikeda, not an awful lot about the Gosho, no mention of Shakyamuni. I think Nichijew posted a "breakdown" of one of their "talks" and this one seemed to fall very much along the same lines. It's very telling.

Finally... as I was looking around the other Nichiren websites including the Nichiren Shoshu website, I suddenly remembered that since I joined before the split with the priesthood, I did in fact receive my Gohonzon from a priest (since exchanged, which I didn't really like doing at the time, now that I think of it) and I got the "Gojukai" ceremony from a priest welcoming me into the practice. Wow. How joyful I felt on that day, making that commitment. In fact, the presence of the priest was one thing that reassured me that even though this Buddhism appeared modern and perhaps a bit odd, it had deep roots and was still "Buddhism" even if it didn't map closely to what I had learned about Buddhism in that Eastern religions course I took in college. Anyway.... I had completely forgotten that (and of course the SGI was in no hurry to remind me, LOL.) I don't really know what to think of that. It is strange, how this stuff comes up. What does it mean for myself that I have taken these vows? I don't know.

Anyway -- I absolutely HAVE to stop thinking about this stuff and reading this thread and go get something else done. Thanks again to all of you here and TTYL.

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simplify
Hi Backnforth, Hi everyone

I am new to the board but have been reading for several days. I am an SGI-UK member (District Leader) and am planning my (hopefully quiet) disengagement from the SGI. I have been trying to find out if I can carry on a practice independently and my web searches led me to this forum. I have stopped practicing once before - for some time - but found it very difficult to keep-up the part of the practice I find worthwhile on my own (ie chanting and a bit of studying of the lotus sutra and gosho) and I missed the good effects this had on me (Basically I am very lazy and need to chant with other people occasionally to keep going - same with yoga, need classes to keep it up!)

So when I step down from DL in preparation for leaving what I now believe is a cult, I'd like to find other like minded people to chant with occasionally. I've been researching other sects but don't think that is for me - I want out of these formal organisations. . Backnforth's post of a couple of weeks ago has inspired me to take the plunge and register for the forum:

"....Anyway, enough of that. Just today I was thinking it would be great if there was a web-site launched that provided a way to link folks together in their own towns or cities if they just simply want the old fashioned discussion groups with chanting, gongyo and the gosho. It could be called ex-SGI member Connection or True Lay Organization or something like that. One problem: Nam myoho renge kyo or Namu myoho renge kyo. This is a dilema."

I did see a link to a site for independents to get in touch with each other and will join that although it looks like it is aimed mainly at the USA. But maybe I'll find some Buddhists with similar views who are near me on there some day.

Although I am absolutely at the end of my tether with this Mentor Disciple bollox, I still respect and like many of the members and leaders I know in the organisation. Many of them are good people I've known for years, who I think genuinely aren't aware of just how rabidly cult-like SGI has become - especially those of us who have been practising for 20 years or more. Just like I didn't until recently (although for about 4-5 years I have been becoming increasingly uneasy). Some of them hold very 'senior' leadership roles, but seem oblivious to what is happening. It is quite clever, the insidious way that the practise we joined has become Soka Gakkai Ikeda. Although, disturbingly, I've seen the posts where as long as 30 years ago leaders were claiming Ikea is the Buddha, so maybe it was never the relaxed, friendly and flexible organisation I remember pre-M&D Ikeda personality cult days. Maybe because I was just a lowly member I was protected from all that?

I must say I feel a lot less wary of the weeks and months ahead as I extract myself from SGI now that I have found this board to come to, so thank you all very much for the cybersupport!

Simplify

For sure - back in the day I started in the 70's and it's like nothing I can relate too in today’s SGI - If I was just starting out and I was introduced to SGI. I would just keep walking. Ikeda and his ilk have killed any Buddhist movement that this organization may of had - : ( It’s now all about the money$$$$ - I have been receiving e-mail asking me for May contributions – not only that but saying I should double or triple my contributions because of all the financial hardships that are ongoing and I need to make every effort this MAY and give everything and then some to the SGI. I replied that the SGI should forgo this year collection and give to the many Japanese Relief Funds to help the people of Japan – Take a stand for Buddhist compassion instead of fattening the coffers of the SGI. Of course I have not gotten a reply to my response. Funny what a few decades make and having a top down Mentor like Ikeda… WHAT UP WITH THAT!!!!!

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sunmoonstars

A couple of other thoughts -- someone posted about the way districts were split up, and not allowing to be in the district with your friends, etc. What a reminder! I had completely forgotten that this happened to me! And how upset I was at the time. Looking back, this really seems like cruel behavior, especially to people who are just getting started with a practice. (I think I had been chanting only a year when this happened). It really seems like the kinder thing to do would be to let people choose their own groups, and if redistribution of members was needed, to ask for volunteers to move around. It seems like a really harsh way to treat your members when you think about it.

Anyway -- I absolutely HAVE to stop thinking about this stuff and reading this thread and go get something else done. Thanks again to all of you here and TTYL.

Hi Sunmoonstars. I like your name by the way. I have appreciated your sincere posts as well. You know, this happened to me. I was not allowed to be in the district with my friend. As a newbie, they told me which district I would be apart of, and there were more to chose from. I think if there is anything I have resented from the SGI, it is the severity of their actions. I think the severity also is related to the aggressive nature that I felt at times from the members (not everyone), but it was more of a feeling in the air. Thanks for sharing. I am looking forward to more of your posts.

Welcome Simplify and Sunmoonstars. It's great to welcome more newcomers. I too have been seriously reflecting about what to do with my mind while chanting. Did you know you can still worry, fret, complain, plan, critcize or whatever while you are chanting? I think that we are supposed to be observing our mind and we should quiet the mind as much as we can during daimoku. As I try to do this it's becoming more of a spiritual practice again, like when I first encountered it. I think the SGI has taken the spirituality out of Buddhism.

I'm not sure about registering on the website for Nichiren Buddhists yet. We'll see. My first impression was to be suspicious for some reason, not sure why yet so I'll wait. I've always had a disciplined daily practice so practicing more independently has not been difficult for me. I used to miss the Community Center experience, but now I just keep remembering Danny Nagashima standing in the front telling us that we can't attain enlightenment without the right attitude toward the mentor. What BS the SGI has dreamed up. The gosho is our clear roadmap to enlightenment. And it is clear to me now that observing the mind has to do with the present moment more than chanting for the pie in the sky.

Talk to ya'll soon.

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backnforth
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I used to miss the Community Center experience, but now I just keep remembering Danny Nagashima standing in the front telling us that we can't attain enlightenment without the right attitude toward the mentor. What BS the SGI has dreamed up. Talk to ya'll soon.

Thank you for this. Makes me realize that it is the SGI that is screwy and not Nichiren Buddhism, per se. I tried to avoid meetings and teleconferences that talked about this kind of thing for fear of becoming brainwashed!

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backnforth
Did you know you can still worry, fret, complain, plan, critcize or whatever while you are chanting? I think that we are supposed to be observing our mind and we should quiet the mind as much as we can during daimoku. As I try to do this it's becoming more of a spiritual practice again, like when I first encountered it.

YES -- I completely agree. For me I think this is why that mindfulness meditation class I have been taking is very useful. I find it REALLY easy to quiet the mind during walking meditation. During sitting meditation I (my mind) wanders a bit. When I chant the daimoku I really wander, and I think this probably due to the bad habits I acquired during the Gakkai days of "Just Chant"ing without really paying attention to what you are doing. Right now I find it easiest to start my morning practice with a bit of meditation and then that makes me more focused for a bit of chanting. MINDFULLY -- not wandering!

Back to the topic of being forced to change districts. I was thinking about that this morning and it brought me to the idea of being "strict." I think there is a lot of "strictness" in the SGI (and possibly in Nichiren Buddhism in general although I can't really say that for sure.) A LOT of the attitudes especially around Byakuren, Gajokai etc., had to do with being 'strict' with people. Sitting in front of the Gohonzon chanting for 10 hours was being 'strict' with yourself. This whole thing about being a lion and being victorious - the way we used to shout "HAI" to what a leader said - it's that Nike attitude, "JUST DO IT." It's very strict strict strict.

It seems to me that this "strictness" can be a very powerful tool but that means when it is misused it can go bad in a very powerful way.

I was thinking about the idea of being strict with other people (which is what forcing someone to change districts really is). I must digress here and tell you all that I am a rower and I am currently rowing in a double boat with one other rowing friend and we are training for a race coming up in a few weeks here. We were out in the boat the other day and I was setting the pace and we were doing sprints and that kind of thing. Afterwards she said to me that I was a real slavedriver and that was a GOOD thing because if she had been out in the boat by herself she would not have done that many sprints. And it occurred to me when I was thinking about this idea of "strictness" that yes, I was strict with her sometimes but she was also strict with me sometimes and that was what was making us stronger. BUT, I can only do this because I know her well and I know what she is capable of and we are also good friends and we know and agree upon what we need to do to train for this race. We are both teacher and student in turn. In this context it is appropriate for me to be strict with her (or her to be strict with me) but only in a kind way as we are ALSO friends and equals and if this isn't fun for both of us we won't keep doing it. (If I am a jerk she will just quit and then I don't have anyone to row with.) Also it would NOT be appropriate for me to be strict with her about weight training or something like that because I don't know a dang thing about it.

I was also thinking about my friend who is a teacher (at a photography school) and they have a very strict system of grades and deadlines and so on. He has to be very strict with them - they have to get their grades in on time - but he also tells them if they are having difficulties to talk to the academic dean and that person can get them an exception in case they have personal difficulties. So this is being strict out of necessity but with some compassion.

So reasoning from these everyday examples to a spiritual context the requirements for a teacher to be "strict" with a student have to be something like this.
1) Teacher has to have a deep understanding of where the student is on the path (easier said than done!) This right here implies that the teacher knows the student well.
2) Teacher has to have a deep understanding of the teaching. To understand that it is the correct teaching for the student right at this time and will not harm the student.
3) Teacher must be approaching the strictness with a spirit of lovingkindness NOT ego!

I guess ALL of these are easier said than done. Now that I think about this matter just from a practical sense, how egotistical it is for virtually any ordinary human being to be strict with another about personal spiritual matters!

So -- if you are a teacher (and we are all teachers) do you agree?

And if you are a student receiving this kind of strict teaching -- it would make a difference, wouldn't it, if you knew (could really feel) that the teacher is approaching it from this perspective. I think in the Gakkai there was a LOT of "strict" teaching with very little understanding of the member's heart, and also coming from the ego point of view, a real lack of lovingkindness. Lots of bruises there and people getting told to just suck it up and deal with it.

Anyway --- there is also being strict with yourself and, from a philosophical point of view, being strict doctrinally, which I think is seen in Nichiren Buddhism around the "True Buddhism" idea. I will have more to say about these last two points later as I haven't had a chance to straighten out my thoughts yet around those..... Until next time.

Thanks for listening. Gassho!

Hi Guys,
I'm sorry to keep talking so much. I guess I never really processed any of this stuff once I drifted away from the Gakkai. I just put it all in a box in the back of my head and didn't think about it and now it's all coming up. I guess I have to figure out now what I really think as opposed to what the Gakkai told me to think and it's causing me to think and write about it a lot!

I was thinking about being "strict" with yourself and it led to the question, being strict about what? So then I started thinking about the practice. As you guys all know, the Gakkai teaches that the basics of this Buddhism are faith, practice and study. That's not a bad start, I think. BUT, the kicker being, HOW exactly those are defined! The devil is ALWAYS in the details! and I think that's where the Gakkai starts to get it wrong.

Practice is defined as having two parts, practice for oneself and practice for others (I feel like I'm back at an introductory meeting all of a sudden! haha!)
Practice for oneself is gongyo and chanting. NOW we get to the part about where I start to not want to play "follow the leader" quite so much. When you go out and look at other faiths or other Buddhist schools there are all kinds of practices, i.e. all the different types of meditation, maybe doing mindful calligraphy, Sufi dancing, all those kinds of spiritual practices, on and on and on. Now, one thing I think is true is that we are all different kinds of people and we are wired differently and we respond to different things. I was at the dentist this morning and the hygienist was cleaning my teeth and it was tickling me and I laughed. She remarked that everyone has different reactions and one woman gets this really painful headache whenever she cleans her teeth. Amazing how we are all wired so differently! so I think, just based on my common sense and observation, that we as human beings are NOT "one size fits all" and therefore, recommendations for a personal spiritual practice should not be to do only one thing.

Also I think about what is like to train for my race .... yes, I am back to rowing again, maybe I will write a book, "Buddhism and the Art of Rowing," hahah. Anyway.... you don't just train for rowing by rowing -- although you do MOSTLY rowing -- but you can (and should) also do stationary rowing, weightlifting, stretching, and a proper diet. Now, do you do a lot of these things? No, you MOSTLY row, but a good balance of all of these other things is also necessary to help support your rowing. So. I am just not sure I can buy into the idea of chanting, and ONLY chanting, being the best practice.

Interestingly enough, I think I've probably just ruled out (for myself personally) some other Nichiren schools, with this particular insight. So be it. This is just my personal feeling, which is what I have to go by right now. And yes, I know Nichiren said "Only by chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" with I am sure an emphasis on the ONLY... but, well, first of all I am not enough of a scholar to figure out if that emphasis is really what he meant or not, and second of all, I have to go by my own personal observations and my own life experiences to start off with and this is what my gut is telling me, that a spiritual practice should be focused but can and should also have some variety.

Next -- practice for others, which is introducing people to the faith and of course all of those meetings that they have. Here is where I think the SGI goes way, WAY off the rails. Pretty much 75% of the stuff they do -- ESPECIALLY when you are a leader -- could be constituted "practice for others." Calling people about meetings, organizing meetings, having meetings about meetings (YES ... having meetings about meetings... dear heavens, we did a LOT of that, didn't we? How stupid! Meetings about meetings!). All of that paperwork and managerial bullshit that goes into being a Gakkai leader.

I personally don't see how ANY of that leads to being enlightened. If it did, we would have a hell of a lot more enlightened Administrative Assistants and Project Managers running around. HAHAHA.

Now am I saying there's no such thing as practice for others? Of course not. No matter what your faith, you may of course be led to share it with others and discuss it with others in the spirit of lovingkindness if appropriate. BUT there is only so much you can do... and this certainly should not be your primary emphasis as it is for many of the Gakkai. According to the Parinirvana Sutra, the Buddha's last words were: "Decay is inherent in all component things! Work out your own salvation with diligence!" In other words, you've got to do it for yourself, nobody else is going to do it for you!

It also really blows me away that the Gakkai puts these leadership burdens, especially at the lower levels, on people that really might not be ready for this kind of thing. At least in my day, if you'd been around for awhile and you were any kind of organized person, poof! you're a leader. There was all this talk about "capable leaders for kosenrufu" -- remember that? What a crappy criteria for leadership. I mean really. CAPABLE leaders? In a spiritual organization? How about KIND leaders, COMPASSIONATE leaders, WISE leaders -- much better than CAPABLE leaders. Capable leaders -- hell, the Nazis were quite CAPABLE, that doesn't mean it's a GOOD thing. (Sorry for the Nazi thing, it just popped out. Although I think that Godwin's Law has already been invoked on this thread several times previously, haha).

Anyway. Leadership. Volatile stuff, and the Gakkai by and large did a lousy job handling it as far as I recall. You didn't have to be particularly wise or insightful to become a unit leader - just be able to parrot a basic vocabulary of Buddhist concepts and be able to organize stuff and follow orders. Quantity... not quality.... the name of the game. Ugh.

Onwards... into the fog! :) Peace.

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backnforth
Welcome Simplify and Sunmoonstars. It's great to welcome more newcomers. I too have been seriously reflecting about what to do with my mind while chanting. Did you know you can still worry, fret, complain, plan, critcize or whatever while you are chanting? I think that we are supposed to be observing our mind and we should quiet the mind as much as we can during daimoku. As I try to do this it's becoming more of a spiritual practice again, like when I first encountered it. I think the SGI has taken the spirituality out of Buddhism.

I'm not sure about registering on the website for Nichiren Buddhists yet. We'll see. My first impression was to be suspicious for some reason, not sure why yet so I'll wait. I've always had a disciplined daily practice so practicing more independently has not been difficult for me. I used to miss the Community Center experience, but now I just keep remembering Danny Nagashima standing in the front telling us that we can't attain enlightenment without the right attitude toward the mentor. What BS the SGI has dreamed up. The gosho is our clear roadmap to enlightenment. And it is clear to me now that observing the mind has to do with the present moment more than chanting for the pie in the sky.

Talk to ya'll soon.

A few things. I agree little with Markp but we are mostly cordial. QQ [Mathew Presseau] and me are friends but we too have some doctrinal disagreements. One thing I can say about them, they are both very sincere, a rare thing for a big time corporate lawyer [Mathew]. QQ is a pure independent, 1/2 Japanese, and both his parents are top SGI leaders. He knows a lot about the Lotus Sutra and SGI. Markp is independent but with a Nichiren Shoshu bent. The only thing you need to be suspicious of is their doctrines, however, I am a bit dismayed they are asking for donations to create Independent Nichiren centers. I don't believe the Kempon Hokke should ask for donations. Nichiren never asked for donations. I give freely of my time and money after reading Nichiren's writings. If you want a temple or a center, build one yourself. Follow the Law [Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren] not the person.

Mark

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sunmoonstars
Hi Guys,
I'm sorry to keep talking so much. I guess I never really processed any of this stuff once I drifted away from the Gakkai. I just put it all in a box in the back of my head and didn't think about it and now it's all coming up. I guess I have to figure out now what I really think as opposed to what the Gakkai told me to think and it's causing me to think and write about it a lot!

I was thinking about being "strict" with yourself and it led to the question, being strict about what? So then I started thinking about the practice. As you guys all know, the Gakkai teaches that the basics of this Buddhism are faith, practice and study. That's not a bad start, I think. BUT, the kicker being, HOW exactly those are defined! The devil is ALWAYS in the details! and I think that's where the Gakkai starts to get it wrong.

Practice is defined as having two parts, practice for oneself and practice for others (I feel like I'm back at an introductory meeting all of a sudden! haha!)
Practice for oneself is gongyo and chanting. NOW we get to the part about where I start to not want to play "follow the leader" quite so much. When you go out and look at other faiths or other Buddhist schools there are all kinds of practices, i.e. all the different types of meditation, maybe doing mindful calligraphy, Sufi dancing, all those kinds of spiritual practices, on and on and on. Now, one thing I think is true is that we are all different kinds of people and we are wired differently and we respond to different things. I was at the dentist this morning and the hygienist was cleaning my teeth and it was tickling me and I laughed. She remarked that everyone has different reactions and one woman gets this really painful headache whenever she cleans her teeth. Amazing how we are all wired so differently! so I think, just based on my common sense and observation, that we as human beings are NOT "one size fits all" and therefore, recommendations for a personal spiritual practice should not be to do only one thing.

Also I think about what is like to train for my race .... yes, I am back to rowing again, maybe I will write a book, "Buddhism and the Art of Rowing," hahah. Anyway.... you don't just train for rowing by rowing -- although you do MOSTLY rowing -- but you can (and should) also do stationary rowing, weightlifting, stretching, and a proper diet. Now, do you do a lot of these things? No, you MOSTLY row, but a good balance of all of these other things is also necessary to help support your rowing. So. I am just not sure I can buy into the idea of chanting, and ONLY chanting, being the best practice.

Interestingly enough, I think I've probably just ruled out (for myself personally) some other Nichiren schools, with this particular insight. So be it. This is just my personal feeling, which is what I have to go by right now. And yes, I know Nichiren said "Only by chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo" with I am sure an emphasis on the ONLY... but, well, first of all I am not enough of a scholar to figure out if that emphasis is really what he meant or not, and second of all, I have to go by my own personal observations and my own life experiences to start off with and this is what my gut is telling me, that a spiritual practice should be focused but can and should also have some variety.

Next -- practice for others, which is introducing people to the faith and of course all of those meetings that they have. Here is where I think the SGI goes way, WAY off the rails. Pretty much 75% of the stuff they do -- ESPECIALLY when you are a leader -- could be constituted "practice for others." Calling people about meetings, organizing meetings, having meetings about meetings (YES ... having meetings about meetings... dear heavens, we did a LOT of that, didn't we? How stupid! Meetings about meetings!). All of that paperwork and managerial bullshit that goes into being a Gakkai leader.

I personally don't see how ANY of that leads to being enlightened. If it did, we would have a hell of a lot more enlightened Administrative Assistants and Project Managers running around. HAHAHA.

Now am I saying there's no such thing as practice for others? Of course not. No matter what your faith, you may of course be led to share it with others and discuss it with others in the spirit of lovingkindness if appropriate. BUT there is only so much you can do... and this certainly should not be your primary emphasis as it is for many of the Gakkai. According to the Parinirvana Sutra, the Buddha's last words were: "Decay is inherent in all component things! Work out your own salvation with diligence!" In other words, you've got to do it for yourself, nobody else is going to do it for you!

It also really blows me away that the Gakkai puts these leadership burdens, especially at the lower levels, on people that really might not be ready for this kind of thing. At least in my day, if you'd been around for awhile and you were any kind of organized person, poof! you're a leader. There was all this talk about "capable leaders for kosenrufu" -- remember that? What a crappy criteria for leadership. I mean really. CAPABLE leaders? In a spiritual organization? How about KIND leaders, COMPASSIONATE leaders, WISE leaders -- much better than CAPABLE leaders. Capable leaders -- hell, the Nazis were quite CAPABLE, that doesn't mean it's a GOOD thing. (Sorry for the Nazi thing, it just popped out. Although I think that Godwin's Law has already been invoked on this thread several times previously, haha).

Anyway. Leadership. Volatile stuff, and the Gakkai by and large did a lousy job handling it as far as I recall. You didn't have to be particularly wise or insightful to become a unit leader - just be able to parrot a basic vocabulary of Buddhist concepts and be able to organize stuff and follow orders. Quantity... not quality.... the name of the game. Ugh.

Onwards... into the fog! :) Peace.

sunmoonstars, thanks for posting! I appreciate reading them. You have a lot of great points. One that got me was your visit to the dental hygenist. When she was telling you how people have all sorts of different reactions to a cleaning...We are all wired a little differently! "One size fits all" doesn't work---indeed! That's what's scary about the M/D mindset, the urgent goal of Worldwide Kosen-Rufu. One size really has to fit all, despite talk of "living true to oneself". You cannot question, everything has to fit the box. If everyone swallows and stuffs their questions, gut reactions, and just follows the Ikeda, then world peace will happen! Corral 'em like the poor sheep.

Another excellent point with your analogy of rowing training.

It always seemed like they wanted to make everybody a leader. Everybody! I basically sucked at leadership when I was appointed, and was kindly relieved not long after. The times I've been asked in recent years, I've always declined, no ifs,ands, buts. There was nooo push to get the mind changed...because they know I've got heretical beliefs (never have been a "pure" Buddhist) and questions and it's a little too risky to put someone like that into leadership. Indeed!

Don't apologize for venting! It's very needed and we certainly benefit...thanks!

Shavoy

Hi Shavoy, Hi all, thanks for your kind words. :) Isn't it funny about everyone being a leader? I guess it comes because since the most basic form of spiritual guidance is "Let's get together and chant about it!" pretty much anyone can dispense that advice! LOL! But then... what's next after that? (A good leader would say, MORE CHANTING! hahaha)

Anyway -- still thinking about the three kinds of "strictness" and the SGI. I've been thinking about the kind of "doctrinal" strictness you see in SGI especially around the priesthood issue and the details of how the lineage is passed down and that kind of theological thing. (And that seems to be present in other Nichiren sects as well).

First of all I want to say I have no problem with two equals engaging in theological debate, strict or not. That is fine, there are certain people who can most definitely hold their own. If done with mutual respect it can be worthwhile and educational and entertaining and so on. I'm not sure in the end that anyone is ever convinced by this kind of discourse but maybe there are some.

As an aside: for me PERSONALLY, if anybody starts in with me right away about the finer points of doctrine between the various Nichiren sects I am going to be out the door so fast it will make your head spin. I just can't take any more of that kind of discourse right now. (I am reminded of the distinction between shoju and shakubuku and when they are appropriate -- definitely NO shakubuku for me right now, thank you very much. Heh. Maybe in a year or so.)

Now -- claiming, "We're right, it's our way or the highway" when it is in the mode of discourse of a teacher to a student, not between equals, this claim is one that really does have the potential to be damaging. The student places faith in the teacher, and maybe the doesn't have the theological or life experience to address the claim intelligently. And maybe the student is bought into the organization already for other reasons -- so the downhill slope starts here. I am not saying that every religion that claims to be the "one true path" is a cult -- because a LOT of them do (maybe most of them?!) -- but this can be a powerful mechanism for locking people into your organization.

It is interesting when you pick it apart how many ways the claim to be the "one true path" operates on people:
- I am an insider. I have special knowledge. Belonging. Tribalism. Us and them.
- I am doing the right thing with my life / I am in the right place.
- Ties the new member closer to the organization with confidence
- Human beings love to say "I'm right you're wrong" and feel better than others. A destructive and petty mindset but VERY easy to fall into and very powerful.
- And from the inside, it increases the urge to propagate and share with your friends since you have this great secret.

I should add that at least when I joined the SGI, I was not told that this was the ONLY way to attain enlightenment, only the BEST way.

I think this is an interesting variation on the "we're right" claim because by modifying it in that way, it became more palatable to me personally (as a thinking person) and there MAY be a grain of truth. What IS that grain of truth?

First I think that if you look at history there is no shortage of wise and/or spiritual teachers in many traditions who have attained some degree of insight into the "divine" (using that word in a non-sectarian sense) so I think any claim to be the "one true path" to some kind of insight or wisdom is kind of bogus on the face of it. So then you start to get into the discussion about "My kind of enlightenment / salvation is better than your kind; my road is faster," and on and on and off into the weeds we go (see "theological debate" above).

I am reminded of the three kinds of proof. (How it all comes back!) Documentary proof, theoretical proof, and actual proof. Documentary proof being in accordance with the sutras. If you are going to take it outside the realm of Buddhism of course documentary proof would just be whatever scripture you use. Theoretical proof meaning it is reasonable and logical. I suppose I am working out my own ideas in the "theoretical proof" realm just by writing this. And actual proof, i.e RESULTS when you practice.

As to documentary proof, well, everyone points at their holy book and says "it's right." If you have the same set of holy books then you can have a nice theological debate with each other in this realm. Not necessarily convincing to anyone but there you go. Theoretical proof sort of falls into this same area. But actual proof -- now you're talking -- well sort of. Because when it comes to spiritual practices, I can personally guarantee you that for every single religion and/or cult out there, SOMEONE will have an individual anecdotal story to relate that is that individual person's version of actual proof. It's the internet, you can probably find actual proof from members of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, hehe. Well. So much for "actual proof" in the form of anecdotal evidence. (See also: "Correlation is NOT causation.")

What about in the aggregate? Is it possible to look at a philosophy/religion/cult in the overall and judge it by its fruits? Well yes. Isn't that what this site is all about? There seems to be a sliding scale of "fruits" that different "philosophies/religions" bear. It is quite clear that some groups are very poisonous and really damage their members mentally, physically, financially, spiritually, etc., And also possibly do bad things to other people outside the group. Whereas some groups are cult-like, but maybe not AS poisonous as others. For example, I think just the discussion on this thread show that the SGI definitely has a mixture of negative and positive.

It would be really interesting if any scientist ever did a real study of various religions and if it were possible to draw any real objective conclusions about whether or not its members were happier / more enlightened / more compassionate, etc. In other words, trying for a real comparison about whether or not any one group could show documented actual "proof." Probably never going to happen, though -- what is your standard for judgment and how do you measure it? and how do you know the people you measure are sincere practitioners who really try to implement the teachings as opposed to just "Sunday-church only" kinds of folks?

So what are we left with? Only more questions.

I used to think that the reason groups claimed to be the "one true whatever" was to keep you in the group for altruistic reasons -- so you could work out your "stuff" and get closer to "enlightenment." I had the notion when I noticed something I didn't like in the Gakkai it was my karma to work that thing out and that was a sign of an area I had to work on in myself. (Very cultlike!) I got this in part because of the analogy I read somewhere about if you want a well you need to dig a hole straight down until you find water, you don't dig five feet down, stop because you haven't found water, move over a few feet and start digging there again. You sit in one place and you dig and you dig until you find water.

Hm. I don't know. First before you sink $20,000 in a well you'd better make sure that the water is THERE. Hire an engineer! And they will tell you how far down the water is. (Next book: "Buddhism and the Art of Home and Farm Maintenance." LOL). So ... what practices REALLY lead to enlightenment? No way to know! All the engineers say different things! And after all, what is the goal? To have a well? Or to get water? Maybe you should put in some nice rainbarrels instead. LOL. I don't know where I'm going with this all I know is with the Gakkai I hit bedrock eventually and didn't feel like getting out the dynamite so here I am thinking about Plan B.

Cheers,
sunmoonstars