Sorry, I really do just have to reply to this.

Please remember that Sonoma, as a place, is not representative of the rest of the world, and things which happen in the groups there may be isolated incidents and specific groups (i.e., geographic groups in, say, Subud) may have a certain amount of freedom to choose their own materials and read what they want. It's only when they take those views OUTSIDE their groups which they experience fierce repression.

Let me explain. I used to own the vast majority of those books you mentioned. It didn't make me a Satanist, I was just interested in occultism and saw it as an expression of open-mindedness. In Subud, even if you're brought up in it, you can't join in their ritual worship (The "latihan," training, sacred dance, whatever) until you're in your mid to late teens. (It's usually 17 but I was 16). When I was actively recruited into the group by my mother and people I'd long trusted, I was in a very bad emotional place. I'd just dropped out of university (that in itself is a long story), and I was really bad emotionally.

My teenage interest in occultism, albeit perfectly passive, was completely used against me and utterly destroyed me in the end. I was repeatedly coerced into believing that this was the work of "lower forces" in me, which took over my heart and mind. Called the Nafsu, these "forces" are seen as being very real in Subud. Any interest in ANYTHING other than the word of Bapak (though mainstream religions ARE allowed) is termed mixing, and is a sure sign you're well under the influence of the Nafsu.

Of course, I was only into tarot, kaballah, etc., because I was curious, intelligent, and open-minded - I genuinely WANTED to recover, to be spiritual, to be "good." The thought of being possessed by the Nafsu was pretty horrifying. Subud is polarized - there are factions of ultra-conservative, rigidly brainwashed and obsessive followers of Bapak constantly fighting with the dope-smoking Sufis who came in it through Bennett & Gurdjieff. But even beyond this, there ARE rules, and what is an acceptable amount of in-fighting amongst the 1st & 2nd generations of Coombe Springers and baby boomers is ABSOLUTELY NOT tolerated in anyone under the age of about 45. So here we have 3G, which is me and my "friends," who feel this intense pressure to be absolutely perfect. No you must NOT pass go, you will NOT get out of jail free, you will NOT collect £200 etc. (My apologies for being excessively British... that was a reference to Monopoly, in case anyone missed it).

3G, et al, have to be absolutely ideal. "We" are CONSTANTLY told that "we" have a gift which the older generations (whether they're fighting amongst themselves or not) have had to utterly, utterly work for, sweat for, bleed for etc... that their hard work is just simply paving the way for us, and we're walking down the road of life pain-free, without voice, without reason, without any life of our own.

You want power to have your own voice? You have to play the game. If you don't show up to Latihan twice a week, attend every Kejiwaan day, go along to congresses, "test" all your most deepest personal problems (which means confessing every secret thought and trauma and have elder members "ask God" [i.e., engage in a spiritual panel vote] what to do with you), then you'll never be respected. Even if you DO all the above things, if someone else's parent has a problem with your parent, you won't get anywhere anyway.

There is no secrets, no privacy. EVERYONE in Subud in this country knows my name; if I give my father's name, they will be, "Ahh..." There are at least 20 or 30 families just in this country alone where everyone will know every deep down trauma I've been through in my life.

This will be hard for anyone not in Subud to understand, unless you've also been in a group where you were of the inferior generation.

Current Subud members are likely to throw a hissy if they read this. Denial is a very powerful thing. It's certainly protected me for seven years.

P.S., every national and international congress does sound very similar to an LGAT without credit cards. The love-bombing, the exposure, the removal of autonomy, the accusations of Nafsu-control, the "genuine help", the experiences of "crisis," the feeling of just being one of a gene pool of youth, of my own mother loving me no more than she loves my friends or whatever, the suffocating pressure, the abuse, the control, the.... arrrghhh....

The point is that I don't think it matters whether a few members in some drugged-up corner of California are involved in occultism or ritual sex or whatever (sorry to anyone who has experienced ritual sex, I'm not trying to undermine it), but the fact is that it doesn't matter - Subud is painful and dangerous and destructive just because, as Corboy said elsewhere, groups like these attract a large number of emotionally vulnerable and volatile people, whose experiences become WORSE not better throughout their long and painful involvements with these groups. Whether there is a "Satanic" element or not is of no consequence - even if there was, it would be a tiny minority - Subud as a culture treats that sort of thing very strictly, and with a great amount of humiliation and pain for anyone caught with a book on Witchcraft or Tarot (I have some really messed up stories there... but I can't share right now, nor does it really matter anyway).

This cuold be me. Another 2G or 3G child growing up in Subud may love it, have never experienced any abuse, may have really felt a lot of incredible support. Maybe I was just unlucky. Maybe my own group were just imbalanced. Maybe I'm being too kind. Maybe I'm being too unkind. Maybe this is just the Nafsu taking me over... I don't KNOW. How can you make rational decisions in the wake of this? The tragedy is not some conspiracy, it's just the fact that it EXISTS, and people are messed up just because it DOES exist. That is the awful thing here. That is the true tragedy of cults - the alienation and loneliness, the psychological barrier which forms between "out" and "in."

This has become rather long and emotionally charged. I apologise. It's more like the bursting of a psychological blister, and not targeted at anything or anyone. Hmm.

Rant over. Sorry...

Jupiter.

Thank you, Jupiter, for your clarifications. I learned quite a bit from your posts. Best of luck to you.

Hiya I just wanted to give a bit of a response to some of the things said about Subud in this discussion.

I am a 24-year old Subud member (I live normally in the UK but I am visiting family in New Zealand currently), and I have to say that I send my sympathy to Jupiter.

Although my experiences in Subud have been very positive, there are certainly the old school pontificating personalities in the membership who are damaging to other people. It sounds like an extreme case in the group mentioned- Sonoma, California (?)-where there's a hard-line type of indoctrination; behaviour like that is, I feel, a sad and painfully ironic contrast to what Subud was intended by Bapak to be. I'd be happy to quote legions of talks ( and if anything's a definitive statement about Subud's aims etc. its going to be a Bpk.'s talk) to back this up.
The Sonoma "Subud" group is, in practice, then, yes, more or less a cult and you are 100% right to feel upset about it. Strictly speaking, maybe they should genuinely consider not calling themselves a Subud group anymore.
But the fact is that Subud, as it should be is certainly neither a cult nor a religion.

There's this sort of ideological bullying and social b.s., like shunning, that goes on in a lot of movements and its often to do with the faults of individual members, or unhealthily misguided attitudes that grow organically out of group psychology.

If people are saying these dos and don'ts about nafsus and all that jazz its generally about them, the 'factions of ultra-conservative, rigidly brainwashed and obsessive followers of Bapak' are around in the UK too, but much diluted.
There's a parallel between their sort of narrow behaviour and certain sections of the Church who espouse an all-too-saduceean comically literal interpretation of the Bible. Exclusive, condemning, intolerant etc. etc. Personally, I hate crap like that and I feel genuinely sorry on behalf of Subud that you went through the experiences you've described.
As a subud youth I don't pay much attention to people who are 'holier than thou' anyway. Plus, they are happily overshadowed by the scores of brilliant, open-minded, tolerant, not insane (!) and generally good-natured people (of all ages) I have met in Subud.

My Best Wishes, and feel free- anyone- to reply.

Elias


Oh yeh- PS-
Subud is not involved in the least with satanism and I would have nothing to do with it if it was. I would be bloody amazed if there was a satanist core hidden away in the movement lol

"I live in an area that is a hotbed of alternative and dysfunctional groups and I never see recruitment ads or fliers for Subud.

If it is practiced, it appears this is done discreetly, if not secretively."

Subud members don't recruit as far as I know, at least not where I live. (Northern England) Bapak said something to the effect that you should set an example by the way you live and that would attract people.

Subud is not secretive. There are numerous web-sites. You can get literature if you ask for it. It's not pushed at you though.

I feel very sorry for what's happened to Jupiter. Like other organisations of this kind you sometimes get members who become fanatical about what they're doing and things can get unhealthy. I suppose it's up to people like me and my friends in Subud to make sure it doesn't happen to our group!

My experience of Subud (just over two years) has been positive. The people in my group are nice, tolerant and not averse to criticism or discussion about the way things are run. I've not been asked to give money. I've not been pressured to go to regional meetings, members homes or anything like that. I show up, do the latihan, have a cuppa and leave. That's it!

First of all I hope this isnt a group spam attack or thread hijack to silent any dissident voices.
The Mods will act accordingly.

Quote
river song
..
Subud members don't recruit as far as I know, at least not where I live. ..

And this doesnt somehow make it Not A cult?
A number of cults do not actively recruit members.

Some groups operate by word of mouth or through "friends". (If I recall other groups like the Branch Davidians never actively recruited members.)

Quote
river song
..
Subud is not secretive. There are numerous web-sites. You can get literature if you ask for it. It's not pushed at you though.

So what if Subud is not secretive. Its a perpetuated myth that "cults" are secretive. Many arnt and many do give out literature freely.
Theres a cult technique known as "fishing" where the cult freely gives out literature to entice people's curiosity and eventuallity get them to talk to cults members..which eventually leads them deeper and deeper and more committed into a group etc.
Please stop perpetuated myths about cults.

Quote
river song
..
I've not been asked to give money.

There are a number of cults that dont ask for money.
Once again its perpetuating cult myths.

Some cults do 'condition' members to a point where the member feel obligated and guilty enough to donate vast sums of money etc.

Quote
river song
..
I feel very sorry for what's happened to Jupiter. Like other organisations of this kind you sometimes get members who become fanatical about what they're doing and things can get unhealthy. I suppose it's up to people like me and my friends in Subud to make sure it doesn't happen to our group!

My experience of Subud (just over two years) has been positive. The people in my group are nice, tolerant and not averse to criticism or discussion about the way things are run. I've not been asked to give money. I've not been pressured to go to regional meetings, members homes or anything like that. I show up, do the latihan, have a cuppa and leave. That's it!

Imo it sounds like a P.R. line.

Theres always two sides of a coin. With all groups its good to here its criticism from former members.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2008 03:40PM by Keir.

Here's a link to a free book, Stairway to Subud:

www.undiscoveredworldspress.com/stairwaysubud7.pdf

Dear Keir

What I think is very interesting about the last post is the difference between what I have experienced personally, and what it appears that you are interpreting Subud to be. I understand that the typical currency of this forum, with regard to attitude to spiritual movements would be suspicion, and that is only natural given what Jupiter has written.

Its just that I know what you are saying is so incompatible, really quite comically so, with what I know of Subud. The thing about river song's post sounding like it contained a P.R. line etc etc, us trying to silence dissident voices...
Subud is not a well-organised conspiratorial, controlling group. It really isn't. There isn't anything like a structure socially that is even comparable to something like the typical cult thing where there are leaders brainwashing people or hypnotising them with their charisma. Subud is an anamoly, really, and doesn't fit into any category and is often misrepresented. The closest comparable group is probably the Quakers. There is no dogma, no ritual, no secrets.
There is no hierarchy, etc. in fact, frankly, the whole model that this image of Subud is based on really just reflects the typical m.o. of genuine cults, and is not applicable to Subud.

What I think has happened in Sonoma is that the group has more or less devolved into something like a cultic bastardisation of the Subud thing. They are behaving in a way that would appall me if I went to do a latihan there. Strictly speaking, they shouldn't really call themselves "Subud-ians", but some kind of travestial spin-off group.
The fact of the matter is that it doesn't reflect my experience, and I really do offer my sympathy to Jupiter.

My best wishes,

Elias

Ann Haas started a Subud group in Sonoma, CA. Sometimes dangerous people appropriate themselves to do things.

When Ann became a leader of a Gurdgieff group Bennet did not approve it because she was extremely young, arrogant, and was involved with Alex Horn. She decided to call herself a Subud leader simply because she was an egomaniac and had a desire to keep control over everything forever. She suffers from spiritual pride. She is not part of Subud International.

Bad people sometimes come in and do bad things. I am not surprised if Ann Haas would turn anything she touches into a cult. It doesn't mean the ideas themselves are bad

Someone has posted Haas' Subud group, known as "The Group", on Wikipedia. This brief article needs to be corrected as it lists "The Group" as based on Gurdjieff. I assume a member or former member posted it.

Here is the text:

"The Group (commune)

"The Group is an intentional community, now largely dispersed, in Sonoma County, California, which is based on the teachings of G. I. Gurdjieff. It began in the late 1960s when Anne Burridge (later Anne Haas) and a large number of members from Red Mountain Ranch, a commune run by her then husband Alex Horn, left the ranch believing it had departed from any spiritual path and had become violent and dangerous, and that Horn was becoming a cult figure."

[en.wikipedia.org])

I have heard that Haas has retired, or at least, relinquished some of her Group-related activities to a new, up-and-coming leader.

The Group is extremely secretive. Why is this?

Interesting.

I have a family member who was in Ann Haas's "Group". I think that absolute power tends to corrupt, depending on the person. I think she started the Subud group in Sonoma CA to extend her power.

This is a spin-off group, I think, that Bapak had nothing to do with and that should not be recognized as Subud at all.

As for secrecy with the spin-off group, I don't know. I would appreciate comments on this.