Subud as an organization has its problems. Which good people have been and are changing. Most of the bad things people are talking about happened so long ago that those Problem people are not around anymore. There are people in Subud who are not quite right in the head just as there are anywhere else in life. They are easy to spot because the things they say dont sound quite right, therefore just avoid them or take what the say with a grain of salt as I do. There are wonderful people too who I do listen to but even then I only pay attention to my own experiences because thats what the spiritual practice is all about. ("The central practice of Subud is the latihan kejiwaan (literally "spiritual exercise" or "training of the spirit"[3]) or simply 'the latihan'. This exercise is not thought about, learned or trained for.") Bapak even said dont listen to me listen to your own spirtual experiences. Therefore I even take what Bapak says with a grain of salt because the Latihan is a personal spirtual experience between you and a higher power. I have gone to many subud groups all over the world and have to say that its the people and their personalities that make them bad, that said, if people were perfect they wouldn't need spirituality. Most of the groups I have been to are full of great people. Subud groups are different and don't represent the spiritual aspect at all. It's only on the rare occasion that you get a group with a couple of power hungery and/or narcissistic people who make the group look bad. This a sad thing and wish it didn't happen but there are bad people out there. If this happens in your group I would change groups (you might have to travel a little farther).

Some people I know tell me, "I am not apart of or interested in Subud but I am interested in the Latihan so I do Latihan at my home and go to the group once a week leaving right after not talking to anyone".

For some background on the culture from which Subud originated, some readers may find it worth while to get and read Shadows of the Prophet:Martial Arts and Sufi Mysticism by DS Farrer

This is a system of trance/dance/martial arts and became tied to Islam. Persons trying to understand Subud may find some assistance with cultural context here.

[www.google.com]

Nonetheless, Subud does seem associated with a large business tied to gold mining, unless that matter has changed.

And gold mining is inevitably tied to political elites and vested interests.

Vast vast amounts of venture capital to prospect and then develop a mine, and also the consent of the goverment on whose territory that mine is located.

What happens to local communities on whose land that mine is located is another story.

John Sutter, on whose land gold was found in 1849, in what became California, lost control of his own land when prospectors rushed in.

So those pondering a spiritual practice had better do their background research.

Gold is worth little when combined with too high a proportion of impurity.

Maybe gold mining should be a no no for any spiritual organisation. Maybe if an organisation is truly spiritual it should stick to knitting and scone making. But then as Subud does not do the gold mining it should not be a problem. But what if heir knitting and scone making made huge profits, out stripping petrol production etc? I guess these would become elitist and devilish too? On the subject of elitist though I am confused here as we need gold for all sorts of things from mobile phones to ear rings, so i would have thought luxury cigars would be considered a bit more elitist?

Dont know if the bit about Hawke's wife is true.

However, the advice given in this article to learn what financial commitment one actually does make in Subud or any other group is spot on.

[streetcar.forumup.com.au]

HalimaJoined: 22 Sep 2008Posts: 243Location: Queensland PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: Subud Reply with quote

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I found mention of this particular cult, Subud, in an issue of Woman's Day, 13.9.10

There are cults everywhere it seems, being imported into the country from all over the world. Members of Subud go to great lengths to avoid the cult label, explaining that cults have a leader in charge, where Subud changes theirs every four years

Getting the intriguing details of high profile personalities' membership into "Australia's no 1 Weekly Magazine' no doubt ensures a rash of inquiries In this case the high profile person is Blanche D'Apulget, wife of Bob Hawke Subud is reported as being:

* a spiritual group that was founded by Muhammad Subuh Sumohadiwidjohoh in Indonesia 85 years ago

* Based on the practice of "latihan", where the members undergo and ecstatic personal experience while making a personal contact with God. Latihan lasts about half an hour Latihan takes the form of "an emotional release" which may see members scream, cry, punch the air and speak in tongues"

* There are about 10 000 members in 80 countries

* The movement has no central location, no set beliefs, and the world leadership must change every four years

* Individual Subud members often engage in periods of fasting This personal experience of the divine can be so extreme, ..(you never know what may happen. Men have been known to have aggressive releases and no control. Boundaries can be crossed, so we always separate the sexes" ) Mind boggling!

While Subud is free, devotees acknowledge that there is a "recommended donation" to help cover "running costs" However, one Subud follower says it's suggested that all members contribute 25% of their total income to the group.

At first I wondered whether this might have originated as a breakaway from the CF (Christian Fellowship)in Indonesia! But the recommendation of 25 % of total income is even greedier than xCF's tithing...

(I hope Vic hasn't seen this article, and is not now considering raising the "offering" bar!) There are just so many cults out there, So the awareness and support that is offered by streetcar will be vital for the foreseeable future

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FidJoined: 18 Sep 2008Posts: 787Location: Gold Coast PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:06 am Post subject: Reply with quote

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While Subud is free, devotees acknowledge that there is a "recommended donation" to help cover "running costs" However, one Subud follower says it's suggested that all members contribute 25% of their total income to the group.

So where does the money go. There is always someone controlling the purse strings, even in an organisation that is above board.

I guess that should be the leading question in any group / organisation. WHERE DOES THE MONEY GO? When you can ask that question you begin to have a choice

.

[www.cults.co.nz]

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Once a very secretive New Age cult, Subud is now expanding and becoming more open, and no longer hides its teachings behind password-protected web sites. (A cynic would say they've realised they don't need to - people will fall for anything.) Subud was founded in the 1920s in Java, Indonesia by Muhammad Subuh Sumohadiwidjojo (b. 1901, d. 1987), who is normally called Bapak ("Father") by Subud members. There are a little over 200 members in NZ (as of mid 2007), with about 90 in Christchurch, led by Hammond Peek, and most of the rest in Auckland. There are perhaps 10,000 members worldwide.

The name Subud comes from the three words Susila ("the good character of man in accordance with the will of God"), Budhi ("the force of the inner self within man"), and Dharma ("surrender, trust and sincerity towards God"), and is not related to Subuh ("dawn"). The founder expected members to pay 3-5% of their income to the cult (but they can also have many supposed financial crises to respond to each year) and expected members' enterprises (businesses) to pay 25%. These are not enforced - indeed, most Subud members have not heard of those figures, perhaps indicating that Subud's teaching that Subud has no teaching is working - the members have never been taught what their founder said. (Hiding of origins is actually a big problem in many cults, but most don't have self-contradiction at their core.)

The founder's daughter took over leadership when her father died. From Indonesia she picks names for many children and some adults, which helps reinforce group identity (another sign Subud is a cult). This leader is considered to have all the power of her father, who proclaimed himself to be a Christ-like/Muhammad-like figure and was believed by some to be the second coming of Christ. [Can anyone see anything wrong with that belief? Hint: He's now dead. - Editor.]

Central to Subud practice is the latihan - an occult activity like transcendental meditation which according to Dr Stephen Urlich, a Christchurch scientist who wrote an article published in a journal of the American Psychological Association, involves “uninhibited weeping, shouting, writhing, moaning and speaking in tongues” and that “Laughing, jumping and dancing can occur”. Compare this with Kundalini. A Christian perspective is that this activity involves channeling demons that masqerade as either angels of light, the Holy Spirit, or even Christ himself to reveal supposed truth to the Subud member. Nasty. Some Subud members call the latihan "getting opened" which is appropriate for an activity that involves opening oneself to demonic manipulation. Subud has been known to practice strong relationship control, and in a 1964 study cited by Dr Urlich, 24 cases linked Subud to "schizophrenic episodes requiring hospitalisation". This has been referred to as "Subud Syndrome" by a Subud supporting correspondent, who attempted to play it down by implying it was nothing special because "all religious experience can become traumatic for vulnerable people". This is not true of most religious experience and is strong evidence of cultic practice when it occurs.

Like many New Age groups and practices, Subud in particular appears to primarily appeal to those for whom rational thought is not a high priority, meaning that feelings are far more important to them than clear logical thought is. (For example, one Subud member has emailed us claiming black and white can be the same thing because they're both colours.) This combined with the experiences of the Latihan means that it can be very hard to convince a Subud member just how bad it is - they feel it is right, therefore as far as they are concerned it is. Subud is here rated Danger for its heavily New Age theology, its very occult practices, its strongly self-contradictory teachings, and its risk of psychological damage.

Excerpts from an essay by one former practitioner of latihan. He makes clear this is strictly his own concern. But it is worth a peek.

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I’ve tended to call myself an independent ‘Latihaneer’ rather than a Subud member. I define a Latihaneer as anyone who likes the Latihan more than they like Subud, whether or not they’re involved in a Subud group.


I ceased to define myself as a Subud member ever since being one of those who were virtually drummed out of Subud for daring to criticise the Anugraha project in the early 1980s. So we didn’t stay around for long enough to be proved right.


I am not an active member of Subud these days. Nor am I planning to return to a Subud group. So although I’ve been invited by the Subud Vision editors to contribute my views, after several drafts I’ve decided that I don’t feel qualified to prescribe or even suggest any ‘solutions’ to the problem of Subud, 2010.


If indeed there is a problem, that is; as many contributors to Subud Vision believe. Whether there is a problem or not depends, I suppose, upon what sort of Subud organisation you may want and whether you think you (or the world) are getting it or not.

I wish especially to re-emphasise that my views are not necessarily those of the Subud Vision editors, so they are not to be blamed for my own heretical opinions. As the case for change within Subud is already being made very ably by other Subud Vision contributors, I feel, upon reflection, that the only fresh contribution I can offer is to write a couple of statements. Firstly, ‘Why I Am No Longer in Subud’; and secondly, ‘Why I Can No Longer Practice Latihan Regularly’.

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Why I Am No Longer in Subud

In a nutshell, I am no longer in Subud because I agree with Subud Vision contributor Merin Nielsen. Merin states that he joined Subud because he expected it to be as it advertised itself: a supra-religious, ecumenical, universalist forum for people to meet and practice Latihan together, regardless of race, religion, or cultural background.

Although, unlike me, Merin has stayed in Subud, I think this must be because his liking for group Latihan outweighs the fact that he disagrees pretty fundamentally with just about every other Subud member he knows. Most of these members appear to display many of the symptoms of ‘Bapakism’, so-called; a syndrome which more liberal latihaneers deplore, not least in the pages of Subud Vision.

I concur with the use of the term ‘Bapakism’ to refer to the tendency to turn Subud into what it is supposed not to be, namely, a fringe-religion: by treating Bapak’s talks as Holy Writ, Bapak as the infallible pope or prophet of Subud, Bapak’s family as an apostolic succession, helpers’ groups as a quasi-priesthood, Cilandak as a Holy Place, and the world as divisible into two groups, these being loyal Subud members (the saved) and the rest of us (the not-yet-saved and the damned).

Now this may be a logical, albeit fairly fundamentalist religious creed, but it is of course quite irreconcilable with a universalist, spiritual ideal which says that we are all one, and all religions are inwardly compatible with one another: which is what Subud claims will become apparent to anybody who practices Latihan for a while.

For Subud to be Subud in this more universalist sense it has to be available, and to remain available, to members of all of the world’s religions, likewise to ‘transcendental agnostics’. It cannot therefore be a religion itself. And yet, it would seem, a religion is what many (if not most?) active members want Subud to be.

If this is indeed the case, then I raise no objection, providing that Subud members are honest about it and cease to pretend that Subud is not a religion. How they reconcile this with Bapak’s emphatic statement, ‘Subud is not a religion’[1] is of course for them to decide. But they should not be trying to recruit people like me, who never will and never could consent to convert to a belief-system such as Bapakism.

Because all that seems to happen to Bapakists who practice Latihan for a while is that they come to the conclusion that all religions are inwardly compatible with one another, and with Subud, just so long as they’re compatible with Bapakism. This was not my experience of Latihan when I was a regular practitioner. But in Subud it is customary that I cannot argue with somebody else’s experience if it is different from mine.

Clearly, then, practice of Latihan does not lead to unanimity! This leaves Subud members with a dilemma. Universalism or Bapakism? And it’s no use consulting the talks of Bapak to settle the question, since Bapak himself was utterly contradictory on the subject. He was quite capable of saying ‘Don’t trust gurus’ one minute, and then referring to himself as the ‘Jagad Guru’ (World Teacher) the next. Bapak’s only equal as a guru-hating guru was Jiddu Krishnamurti, a comparably confusing figure.

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I suspect that Subud, at present, is not even as ecumenical as (for instance) the Anglican church, which makes great efforts at dialogue with other faiths. I never noticed that Subud helpers were interested in entering into dialogue with anybody.

But to conclude. It seemed clear to me even as far back as the Anugraha project that Subud as an organisation had a split personality: half-mystical, half-evangelical. I remember, for instance, how we were told that World War Three would start if the Anugraha project was not a success!

How’s that for emotional blackmail? It was reminiscent more of the Moonies than what some of us up till then had taken to be the ethos of Subud. And I only discovered much later that there had been a great deal of dubious behaviour (to put it mildly) at the top of the Anugraha project. With hindsight I am not surprised, but I found it shocking, even devastating, at the time.

All this reflected a split in Bapak’s own personality. Sometimes he spoke like a proper mystic; sometimes like an autocratic evangelical preacher. I find evangelicalism in any form, Bapakism not excepted, utterly abhorrent and irredeemably unspiritual. So I have no wish to have anything to do with Bapakism, which, even as a fringe religion among many others, I regard as unusually narrow, cranky, bigoted, and backward.

I might have wanted to have something to do with Subud, had I not encountered a more serious difficulty. Many others, though, who are now lost to Subud probably would have stayed, if they had not found Bapakism so stifling. If the movement now has a recruitment crisis, I think it only has itself to blame.

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I never went in for ‘mixing’, and I’ve never practised excessive Latihans. Nevertheless, after I left Subud, I found that my Latihan followed me around, becoming stronger, more insistent, more spontaneous. By turns annoyed, puzzled, or acquiescent, sometimes I resisted it, sometimes not.



About ten years after leaving Subud, it can be described as having ‘erupted’, partly as a result of my entertaining a heady brew of high mystical ideas inspired by my reading of Satprem’s book.[5] It was the first time I’d read anything which corroborated my own intuitive and spontaneous thoughts on the Latihan and ‘receiving’ generally, as distinct from the orthodox Subud view.



Since which time, I’ve found it only takes a few Latihans to muffle my ordinary mental activity so much that I end up, sometimes for weeks, in a Zen-like mood of what I can only describe as mystical reverie. It is like living in an endless succession of calm, bright impressionist paintings, rather relentlessly in the here and now, and in an unvarying emotional state of serene indifference.



It’s all very well perceiving that all human beings are one, being variations upon one another; and that all things are finite yet luminous manifestations of an infinite potentiality, invisibly charging all visible appearances with the energies that sustain them; so that one might understandably conclude that all existence swims in an unfathomable sea of Divine radiance, sometimes referred to as ‘love’. Or other words to the same effect. But it can all get to be a bit of a strain on the brain after a while.

It is, I suppose, a sort of trance, perhaps indefinitely sustainable, and some might even think it to be a state of enlightenment; but I certainly don’t, because in such a condition the individual totally disappears, having no scope either for reflection or action; therefore there is nobody there to be enlightened.

Which in itself sounds like the sort of Zen paradox that some mystics would delight in.

The trouble is that ultimately I’m not just a mystic, but also a poet and a romantic. I find this condition of semi-or-quasi-satori [6] or whatever it is to be fatiguing, even dull, after the novelty wears off. An ‘illuminated’ zombie is still a bit of a zombie. One perceives, but one does not understand. Which results in a sort of cognitive impotence. One needs to be able to take a step back; but as long as this beatific trance continues, the attention is taken entirely by the moment, and ‘perspective’, or reflection, is impossible.

Since I cannot invoke my Latihan without evoking this state of consciousness, it follows that I cannot practice Latihan nowadays for any length of time. I would be interested to discover whether there are other practitioners who have experienced this difficulty....

Ah,Anugraha!I'd almost forgotten about that. Probably sums up Subud's problem in a nutshell, the way that fell apart. Many members lost a fortune investing in that project, I recall periodic 'cleansing latihans' to rescue the project ( of course Pentecostal/charismatic ecstatic emotionalism is well known for getting people and projects out of financial black holes-where's the rolleyes smiley when you need it?).

And there were group meetings to discuss Anugraha too. Many solutions were proffered ,everything of course had to be 'tested' once the group agreed to it unanimously of course.Naturally a unanimous decision was never reached-always one person saying 'I really don't feel this is right'. In fact nothing ever got done at meetings.

If modern day Subud is turning into a religion in its own right its probably for the best as it will not survive as it was when I was involved. A group of mostly pretentious people who think themselves too good for ordinary religion will not go far, which probably suits most of the bourgeois pseudo-intellectuals I came across.

[www.theargus.co.uk]

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[quote]"To sell the site to a cult is ludicrous" - Row over sale of £1.3m site for less than half of what it's worthOFFICIALS have admitted a prime site being handed over cut-price to a “religious cult” could have been used for housing.

John Barnes, an East Sussex councillor involved in scrutinising the process, said questions remain over the policy which saw spiritual group Subud awarded the former St Anne's School site in Lewes.

The Argus revealed yesterday that independent Lewes estate agent Charles Wycherley valued the four-and-a-half-acre site at £2.75 million with planning permission for housing. He said it "could hardly be more prime".
Today this newspaper can also reveal how East Sussex County Council's own independent valuation of the site was £1.3 million without planning permission - twice the price of Subud's £525,000.

Cllr Barnes said: “If we sold it [for housing] it would be jolly useful to have a couple of million.

“If you were to get permission for housing you might have got better value.

“Obviously there are questions over policy there and it’s legitimate to ask if we should

Today this newspaper can also reveal how East Sussex County Council's own independent valuation of the site was £1.3 million without planning permission - twice the price of Subud's £525,000.

Cllr Barnes said: “If we sold it [for housing] it would be jolly useful to have a couple of million.

“If you were to get permission for housing you might have got better value.

“Obviously there are questions over policy there and it’s legitimate to ask if we should got best value/

"The housing bid wasn't ruled out. But if we are going for maximum value we would have proceeded differently.'

Subud came under fire after the decision was announced after opponents unearthed homophobic literature and teachings that implied the group was religious. The group has strenuously denied it is religious or harbours homophobic views.

A county council budget meeting on Tuesday heard calls for the Subud decision to be reviewed again.

Rita Ellis, who was at the meeting, told The Argus: "I just find it incredible. For the council to sell it to a religious cult is ludicrous when it should be affordable housing."

The sale is yet to be completed, though the council and Subud have said they are carefully working through the documentation.

Two of the councillors involved in a steering group set up to tender out the site for community use, Susan Murray and Ruth O'Keeffe, conceded housing was an option on the table but stood by their decision.

Cllr Murray said: "They could have decided to get rid of it at a commercial rate. But it's not just about the money. I think in this case [disposing of it as a community asset] was a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

"There's an argument on both sides but I stand by the community value."

Cllr O'Keeffe said housing was not ruled out: "It wasn't that we kept beating people back who wanted housing.

"The clamour at the time was people saying they felt deprived of being able to walk through the site."

John Stockdale from the Lewes Community Land Trust lost out - despite bidding £100,000 more than Subud.

He told The Argus: "In the light of huge cuts in the council's budget, I am at a loss as to how it can justify giving away a prime site in the middle of Lewes for a song.”

A county council spokesman said the value achieved was based on the best use for the site.

The Argus:

THE STROLL IN THE NIGHT-TIME WHICH CHANGED A BELIEVER’S LIFE

SO THE story goes, Muhammad Subuh Sumohadiwidjojo was taking a late-night walk when he found himself enveloped in a brilliant light and looked up to experience the sun falling directly on to his body.

He thought he was having a heart attack. Believing he was dying at the ripe age of 24, he went home and surrendered himself to God.

Instead of dying, however, he was moved from within to stand up and go through his normal Muslim prayer routine – seemingly being guided by what he interpreted as the power of God.

The same experience reportedly happened to him for a few hours each night over about three years, giving him an “inner teaching”.

The year was 1925, the place was Indonesia. Subud was born.

Known as Bapak, he spread his teachings and by the early 1930s his reputation had grown.

By imparting his knowledge of “latihan”, a state of active meditation in which people are moved to sing, dance, cry or remain still, others were able to perform the same exercise to clear their minds.

It was clearly contagious as, over the next 90-odd years, Subud garnered 10,000 followers worldwide.

One of its biggest concentrations in Britain is In Lewes where, over the past 40 years, Subud has built up about 150 people actively following its teachings.

Despite being a seemingly peaceful underground group that, according to chairwoman Pam Hewitt, was strong during the free love movement of the 1960s, Subud has its detractors.

In 2003, four Subud families clubbed together to buy Pelham House in the town. The mansion built in the 1500s, the former headquarters of East Sussex County Council, was sold to Subud for a little over £2 million before it became a conference centre, hotel and wedding venue.

Fast-forward ten 10 years and Subud was sharpening its pencils to draw up a bid to buy the former St Anne’s School site – also owned by the county council.

Add to this its involvement to establish the independent Lewes New School in September 2000 and locals might be wondering what Subud can offer that others cannot.

Where the two failed bids – from a team called the Lewes Community Land Trust and the YMCA – wanted to build affordable housing, Subud has said the existing site would incorporate two halls for gender-segregated meditation as part of its own practices as well as rooms for meetings and learning. Later phases would see a café, community garden and possibly even a small amount of housing in one corner of the site. It argues its current site in Station Street is too small and its sale will help fund the move.

Sue Fleming, of Subud Lewes, said: “As we move to larger premises the halls will continue to be available and let out at current, local rates to help cover running costs.

“When the time comes, we will be seeking participation with the wider Lewes community to discuss ideas and uses that this wonderful site might provide.

“Our overall vision is to support the well-being of diverse ages and needs: from nursery, children’s music, youth services to men’s sheds and yoga classes.

“Some ideas that have come forward include: growing projects in the grounds, a community cafe with training and volunteer opportunities and creative social enterprises.”

Following its successful winning bid of £525,000 for the four-and-half-acre site in 2014, Subud faced public scrutiny over Bapak’s historic disparaging views on homosexuality.

Leaders of the Lewes group argue that like any other spiritual group they cannot legislate against some members’ individual views, and stress Subud is not homophobic, and in fact has liberal views where any religion (or none at all) are welcome.

After the county council confirmed in January 2015 that Subud would get the site, the rumblings did not go away.

There have been accusations of the group being a “religious cult” or a “sect” – something Subud denies.

Furthermore, there are suggestions Subud might have had an advantage over the other bidders.

The council, Subud and two councillors, Susan Murray and Ruth O’Keeffe, who helped decide the bid firmly reject any suggestion that there was anything underhanded in proceedings.

But it has not stopped locals wondering why, a year on, contracts have still not been exchanged.

Ms Fleming added: “Subud’s negotiations with the council have not come to a standstill, far from it. “We are taking time to get very complex details negotiated that best serve the interests of the community and the Subud group in Lewes.

“This is indeed a uniquely beautiful site, a treasure for the community, and we agree that we need to get on with this as soon as we can for the benefit of all.”

John Barnes, a councillor who oversaw the scrutiny process after all the outcry, admitted he was personally sceptical of the group but said this did not cloud his judgement.

He said: “I think it’s a funny organisation but it was a legitimate bid.

“I couldn’t allow my personal views to influence the process and that was quite difficult for people who didn’t like Subud to understand.

“Publicly it was our duty to make damn sure there was no discrimination [as far as community use of the site was concerned].

“What matters is whether they discriminate against the public. That’s our concern as a council.

“What came as a surprise to me was that the matter is still rumbling on.”

PATH TO SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES

SUBUD is a spiritual movement that was founded in the late 1920s by an Indonesian man named Bapak Muhammad Subuh Sumohadiwidjojo.

Today Subud has more than 10,000 members in 70 countries across the world.

There are about 50 groups in Britain, with about 140 members forming Subud Lewes. Members practise the “latihan”, an Indonesian word meaning exercise, as a way to get deep spiritual experiences.

Anyone can receive the latihan, following a settling-in period with Subud. Thousands of people from all cultures and backgrounds practise the latihan today.

Subud says the latihan “provides a significant opportunity for people from all religions, and also those who do not conform to an established religion, to follow a spiritual path together and in harmony”.

The latihan starts as an inner impulse, moving the person from within. They sometimes walk, dance, cry, laugh, sing, pray or remain still for about half an hour.

Subud says it is not a trance-like state but adds the benefits also include a deeper contact with God or one’s “higher self”.

The group has been branded a “cult” or a “sect” – labels that Subud rejects. None of Subud’s mMembers do not pay a joining fee but they are asked to contribute an amount of their own choosing towards overheads and supporting the wider organisation.

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karenfromthemoon

9:03am Thu 11 Feb 16

They also seem to worship prime property at knock down prices. The really interesting part is how did the system allow this to happen?

roughsea

9:36am Thu 11 Feb 16

I can understand some needy people following cults, but " professional " staff on the council being conned by these fakirs beggars belief. At the very least the going rate should realised for the rate payer of Lewes.

hoveguyactually

5:57pm Thu 11 Feb 16

Rita Ellis, who was at the meeting, told The Argus: "I just find it incredible. For the council to sell it to a religious cult is ludicrous when it should be affordable housing."

Affordable to whom? Rich Arabs and Russians? Celebrities? Greedy, wealthy landlords? Nowadays "affordable" is strictly unaffordable to most people.

NickBrt

11:17pm Thu 11 Feb 16

Oh, CULT. Sorry, I mis-read the headline.

GoldenTorch

1:25am Fri 12 Feb 16

How come the gov't and councils seem to be experts in selling off our assets (eg. Royal Mail and proposed selling off of Hove Library) at knock down prices? The gov't/councils seem to exude an aura of sheer desperation.

skylight

3:14pm Fri 12 Feb 16

One needs to be careful who call a cult. It was reported in the press in 2008 that a lad was prosecuted under the laws of abuse and "hate speech" for holding a placard that used the word about Scientology . I know nothing of this group so I would be careful what I called

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2016 11:24PM by corboy.

I was involved in Subud for a few years in the early 1980s when I was in my 20s. I was intrigued by it so I thought I would try it. However, thought I attended latihan many times over years I never felt anything. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was like that. More than once I saw someone new join but not have the spontaneous movements or sounds and then drop out. I don't think those in charge even noticed.

I don't know why I stuck around for so long. I tried to ask them why it wasn't happening for me. They did some 'testing' for me. I even got a letter from Bapak. They weren't any help though. Their attitude was that Subud is very simple and it just works. Well, that's alright for them, I thought.

I still don't know what to make of Subud. It seemed the least cult-like of the different movements that I have come across. It seems to me that some people respond to it, getting the movements and vocalizations and the altered states. And some don't. Just like some people can be hypnotized easily and some can fall asleep easily.

I think there must be some connection to Pentecostalism and the 'charismatic renewal' because it seems similar to 'speaking in tongues'. I also think it may have some kind of connection to Hindu ideas about kundalini because there is also spontaneous vocalizations and movement.

I joined Subud 23 years ago, when I was in my early 40s, and am a regular practitioner of the spontaneous moving meditation that Subud members do, called the latihan. I suggest it is up to every individual to figure out if this type of meditation works for them. Just like any other type of spiritual or psychological practise, I think the results depend on your own expectations, and your willingness to invest your time. And that varies enormously.

For me, I have always been interested in this type of stuff and liked the relatively pared-down nature of the latihan. There's little ritual. After sitting quietly for about 15 minutes, you stand in a circle, everyone closes their eyes, someone says "begin" and people let happen whatever happens. Some do nothing but stand there, some run around shouting, some get down and roll on the floor. To an outside observer, it probably looks like a scene from a madhouse. After 30 minutes, someone says "finish", people stop, then sit quietly with their eyes closed for 5-10 minutes. That's it, people then get up and leave.

There's a whole worldview that the founder of Subud talked about, very much in line with what a spiritual teacher from Indonesia would teach - a very old civilization with a base of animism, layered with Hinduism and then immersed in Islam, especially the mystical expression of Sufism, since the 1400's. I frankly don't understand a lot of this.

When I read the founder's talks, some stuff resonates with me, some is just confusing and some I find objectionable. So I generally stay away from it. In some parts of the world, especially the Catholic countries in South America, I think they treat the found of Subud like they might a Catholic saint, a presence that is very alive to them and someone they can pray to. But that's their culture and way.

My path is different, more of a spare, Protestant-type approach. If people want to talk about doing the latihan as a way to worship God, that's cool, but I think it's just words in the end. The only thing that I think really matters is how we treat each other and how much compassion we can bring into the world. It's way to easy to use this spiritual stuff to feed your ego and separate yourself from others.