FCSLC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the Latter Day Saint (Mormon) church, the
> clergy are not paid. It’s all volunteer time.
> That is why most of the hierarchy are
> independently well to do.
>
> In the American Baptist Churches, a person usually
> attends a divinity school and gets a degree and
> then becomes a paid minister. His pension comes
> mainly from Social Security if the contributions
> were paid plus any supplemental savings
> accumulated along the way.
>
> TLWF is a privately owned church. If it is
> incorporated then all the stock is controlled by
> just the top. (I do not know) TLWF’s corporate
> structure could be ‘not normal’ yet still legal.
>
> If John Miller was a paid minister, there should
> have been matching contributions from himself and
> TLWF into the Social Security System.
>
> There is the optional “Vow to Poverty” clause
> where a minister waives contributions into Social
> Security and thereby receives no payments at
> retirement age.
>
> Sharing in the wealth accumulated by TLWF is most
> likely an arbitrary matter, with no binding legal
> requirements upon those in ownership/control.
>
> There were so many in the past that “gave all in
> complete surrender” because in their thinking the
> Kingdom of God was coming in 1979 and money,
> possessions and retirement planning was “worldly”
> and about to be replaced. Remember the song by
> John Lennon, “Imagine”? It is still one of my
> favorites, bringing a tear to my eye and a
> remembrance of former ‘hippie’ days.
>
> JRS was one of the ‘smart ones’. Somewhere on
> this forum or on the internet somebody stated he
> was worth 30 million or so. It must have been
> somewhat secret, since most members with any
> substantial possessions were constantly being
> harassed to prove their
> dedication/loyalty/submission by giving over
> control of their assets to the shepherds.
>
> My dad, who is a Baptist, gave me this advice long
> ago: “Go ahead and believe, just don’t bank on
> it.” ------ Pretty good advice in hindsight.
>
> I would add: “Keep it a secret also.”

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> changedagain Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > <I'm hearing that the LW members are being told
> > that Marilyn is under a vicious attack of
> hatred
> > from ex-members and this is why she is ill.>
>
> Here's another response, via email, to the idea
> that Marilyn's illness was caused by hating
> ex-members. It comes from a former, long-time
> member of TLWF:
>
> 'I suppose blaming others is easier than looking
> into your own life to see if your years of living
> with anger and resentment might be having
> consequences.
>
> I know that I don't live each day sending out hate
> and resentment and death toward them -- I could
> have gone that route, but instead we decided to
> just step away from an atmosphere we considered
> toxic and let them (and us) work out the rest on
> our own.
>
> Everybody dies, so I don't see how someone's death
> is an occasion of judgment or punishment (unless
> you're Bob McClane).
>
> But it will resolve itself in the end.'

NancyB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FCSLC Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > In the Latter Day Saint (Mormon) church, the
> > clergy are not paid. It’s all volunteer time.
> > That is why most of the hierarchy are
> > independently well to do.
> >
> > In the American Baptist Churches, a person
> usually
> > attends a divinity school and gets a degree and
> > then becomes a paid minister. His pension
> comes
> > mainly from Social Security if the
> contributions
> > were paid plus any supplemental savings
> > accumulated along the way.
> >
> > TLWF is a privately owned church. If it is
> > incorporated then all the stock is controlled
> by
> > just the top. (I do not know) TLWF’s
> corporate
> > structure could be ‘not normal’ yet still
> legal.
> >
> > If John Miller was a paid minister, there
> should
> > have been matching contributions from himself
> and
> > TLWF into the Social Security System.
> >
> > There is the optional “Vow to Poverty” clause
> > where a minister waives contributions into
> Social
> > Security and thereby receives no payments at
> > retirement age.
> >
> > Sharing in the wealth accumulated by TLWF is
> most
> > likely an arbitrary matter, with no binding
> legal
> > requirements upon those in ownership/control.
> >
> > There were so many in the past that “gave all
> in
> > complete surrender” because in their thinking
> the
> > Kingdom of God was coming in 1979 and money,
> > possessions and retirement planning was
> “worldly”
> > and about to be replaced. Remember the song by
> > John Lennon, “Imagine”? It is still one of my
> > favorites, bringing a tear to my eye and a
> > remembrance of former ‘hippie’ days.
> >
> > JRS was one of the ‘smart ones’. Somewhere on
> > this forum or on the internet somebody stated
> he
> > was worth 30 million or so. It must have been
> > somewhat secret, since most members with any
> > substantial possessions were constantly being
> > harassed to prove their
> > dedication/loyalty/submission by giving over
> > control of their assets to the shepherds.
> >
> > My dad, who is a Baptist, gave me this advice
> long
> > ago: “Go ahead and believe, just don’t bank on
> > it.” ------ Pretty good advice in hindsight.
> >
> > I would add: “Keep it a secret also.”

Along this vein I wondered if the IRS has considered auditing The Church of the Living Word? I had read that paperwork had been burned at Shiloh by upper management.
I had wondered what was the deal with stuff like Marilyn Farms? church owned or Hargrave owned or unrelated business. I think Gary Hargrave, resigned from TLW or not owes us all an explanation of how funds were used of mis-used.


Consider the following:

Quote
StartChurch Blog Can IRS Audit Churches

Internal Revenue Manual 4.76.7.4 defines a church tax inquiry as “any inquiry to a church…that serves as a basis for determining whether the organization qualifies for tax exemption as a church, or whether it is carrying on an unrelated trade or business or otherwise engaged in activities subjected to any IRC tax.”

Furthermore, section 7611 of the Internal Revenue Code gives guidelines as to how the IRS may begin a church tax inquiry.

I found this interesting article at [www.startchurch.com]

A number of us former members of The Church of the Living Word have concerns about things like
-why was there an amphitheater instead of the nursing home that we were promised?
- why did we for so long assume that the hierarchy lived sacrificially like the members did?
- Were church credit cards mis-used for personal pleasures?
-Why were church corporate names restructured?
_ where was all of the church policies written out so the members could be aware of the the financial deals?
- Who owned the side -businesses and were church funds used to start them?

Quote
StartCHURCH Blog Member Sues Church

A man, who was dismissed from membership for causing division and strife over love offerings given to guest speakers, filed a lawsuit against the church and the pastor, claiming defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and fraud. The claim dates back to 2007 when the church hired a new comptroller to review the church books. The comptroller became dissatisfied ...he inappropriately took some private financial documents of the church and turned them over to the media, which in turn posted them on the Web for the entire world to see... very generous to their guest speakers and others who rendered services to the church.
...disgruntled member filed a lawsuit in court against the pastor and the church. What began as a dispute over love offerings, turned into a lawsuit claiming that the church committed fraud (because the love offerings were way too big) and character defamation (because the pastor and board spoke of the man before the church), causing the man great emotional harm and distress. ...end quote

[www.startchurch.com]

Could we learn something form this or not? One thing for sure is we must be very careful about what we alleged. the problem is that we as a group have asked for financial transparency - have gotten nothing in return from Hargrave or nay leaders left holding the bag of what once was called The Church of the Living Word.

I recommend watching People Magazine Investigates Cults, Season 2, Episode 5. Tonight on Investigation Discovery Channel, The Move of God founded by Sam Fife is investigated. This group has very close roots to The Walk. Both came out of the Pentecostal offshoot known as Latter Rain. Pastor of Claremont, New Hamphshire church, Bill Grier joined forces with The Move upon leaving JRS' The Walk in the early eighties. Several members of the New Hampshire church also joined. Grier currently runs a compound in Alaska.

Aside from being an interesting piece of history, I highly recommend watching. Bill Grier and other former Walk pastors/APCO members have been observed recruiting from among disenfranchised TLWF members. Forewarned is forearmed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2019 09:31PM by Reepicheep.

Reepicheep Wrote:

> Grier currently runs a compound in Alaska.

For some reason, a gigantic red flag flooded my consciousness after reading this sentence. Probably coincidental...

The word “compound” certainly did it for me.

Well, they actually call it a "farm". Potato -- potahto.
[www.buzzfile.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2019 02:40AM by Reepicheep.

People might find the column “Lexington” in the June 15 2019 edition of The Economist” interesting. It has an interesting commentary on the current state of the Southern Baptist Convention (this is how they they refer to their denomination, I believe).

Apparently it is rife with sexual scandal, stemming from similar misuse of so-called shepherding principles as being discussed here.

Worth a read for those interested. A bit off topic, I know but apparently this concept goes south every time someone tries to apply it.

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I recommend watching People Magazine Investigates
> Cults, Season 2, Episode 5. Tonight on
> Investigation Discovery Channel, The Move of God
> founded by Sam Fife is investigated. This group
> has very close roots to The Walk. Both came out of
> the Pentecostal offshoot known as Latter Rain.
> Pastor of Claremont, New Hamphshire church, Bill
> Grier joined forces with The Move upon leaving
> JRS' The Walk in the early eighties. Several
> members of the New Hampshire church also joined.
> Grier currently runs a compound in Alaska.
>
> Aside from being an interesting piece of history,
> I highly recommend watching. Bill Grier and other
> former Walk pastors/APCO members have been
> observed recruiting from among disenfranchised
> TLWF members. Forewarned is forearmed.

In case you have not read the 1974 newspaper article T Free Students of 'devils and demons" Teachers Accused of using Exorcism in School. [venniekocsis.files.wordpress.com]