Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
changedagain
()
Date: June 18, 2019 06:18AM
NancyB Wrote:
> "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice
> first to deceive."
> The people's stories are consistent- but, the
> leadership's story is not- leadership has failed
> to be transparent with financial transactions,
> again and again.
True
> "Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice
> first to deceive."
> The people's stories are consistent- but, the
> leadership's story is not- leadership has failed
> to be transparent with financial transactions,
> again and again.
True
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
changedagain
()
Date: June 18, 2019 06:25AM
I only met Vere once (in the late 70's) and recall having a positive impression of him. Sad, but not surprising, how he was treated by the two monsters that seized control of the organization.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: larry bobo ()
Date: August 08, 2018 10:41AM
My sister is married to Vere Thomas' son, Bruce. As a result, I've heard Vere's version of John's last days before he died. Vere also passed away a few years ago. Some posting here may know that John asked to see Vere many times in his last days, but G & M would not allow it. Finally, when Vere was allowed to see John, he was not allowed to be alone with him. Some thought this was because John might give Vere a leadership role, since they had been close since the early days. Vere was concerned about the way G & M were constantly huddled off together and thought their relationship was very inappropriate. There was obviously some future planning going on, even though they were both married to someone else at the time. Vere was sent out of the country, and when he returned was stripped of everything he had built in Des Moines, including a house that had been given to him personally by one of the members. He moved back to Hawaii with nothing.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: larry bobo ()
Date: August 08, 2018 10:41AM
My sister is married to Vere Thomas' son, Bruce. As a result, I've heard Vere's version of John's last days before he died. Vere also passed away a few years ago. Some posting here may know that John asked to see Vere many times in his last days, but G & M would not allow it. Finally, when Vere was allowed to see John, he was not allowed to be alone with him. Some thought this was because John might give Vere a leadership role, since they had been close since the early days. Vere was concerned about the way G & M were constantly huddled off together and thought their relationship was very inappropriate. There was obviously some future planning going on, even though they were both married to someone else at the time. Vere was sent out of the country, and when he returned was stripped of everything he had built in Des Moines, including a house that had been given to him personally by one of the members. He moved back to Hawaii with nothing.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
NancyB
()
Date: June 18, 2019 07:06AM
changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The public image is of paramount importance. I
> would imagine that G and company would want every
> claim settled privately, without any admission of
> wrongdoing. If they can push the narrative that
> other ministries, without their knowledge, were
> more culpable of these 'alleged' offenses, that
> would work in their favor as well.
I keep seeing promoted posts and ads where Catholics can settled out of court.
I don't have the link at my fingertips to an article which discourages settling out of court. Siting on the witness stand is horrible- as a witness the defendant's lawyer gets to rip you apart and try to confuse you. Not pleasant at all. It saves stress to settle out of court - but...
I am not a lawyer. but, I don't think we want to settle out of court. I believe we can support each other as more facts on fraud and abuse are disclosed.
Of course Hargrave and Rick would want to sweep everything under the rug with a gag order to not disclose the agreement. They would not want full disclosure is not out in the open
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The public image is of paramount importance. I
> would imagine that G and company would want every
> claim settled privately, without any admission of
> wrongdoing. If they can push the narrative that
> other ministries, without their knowledge, were
> more culpable of these 'alleged' offenses, that
> would work in their favor as well.
I keep seeing promoted posts and ads where Catholics can settled out of court.
I don't have the link at my fingertips to an article which discourages settling out of court. Siting on the witness stand is horrible- as a witness the defendant's lawyer gets to rip you apart and try to confuse you. Not pleasant at all. It saves stress to settle out of court - but...
I am not a lawyer. but, I don't think we want to settle out of court. I believe we can support each other as more facts on fraud and abuse are disclosed.
Of course Hargrave and Rick would want to sweep everything under the rug with a gag order to not disclose the agreement. They would not want full disclosure is not out in the open
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
NancyB
()
Date: June 18, 2019 07:33AM
changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I only met Vere once (in the late 70's) and recall
> having a positive impression of him. Sad, but not
> surprising, how he was treated by the two monsters
> that seized control of the organization.
>
> Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John
> Robert Stevens
> Posted by: larry bobo ()
> Date: August 08, 2018 10:41AM
>
> My sister is married to Vere Thomas' son, Bruce.
> As a result, I've heard Vere's version of John's
> last days before he died. Vere also passed away a
> few years ago. Some posting here may know that
> John asked to see Vere many times in his last
> days, but G & M would not allow it. Finally, when
> Vere was allowed to see John, he was not allowed
> to be alone with him. Some thought this was
> because John might give Vere a leadership role,
> since they had been close since the early days.
> Vere was concerned about the way G & M were
> constantly huddled off together and thought their
> relationship was very inappropriate. There was
> obviously some future planning going on, even
> though they were both married to someone else at
> the time. Vere was sent out of the country, and
> when he returned was stripped of everything he had
> built in Des Moines, including a house that had
> been given to him personally by one of the
> members. He moved back to Hawaii with nothing.
YIkES!
That makes sense tho' I don't know that as a fact.
Fact is that in the old days Vere and John were close from what I saw as visiting ministries.
WOW! Even more disturbing.
I don't think JRS had to die so young - If he went to Mexico for laetrile treatment he already knew it did not work for a relative of mine who died a few years before. Steven McQueen was at the same clinic and he died too.
Where was the revelation to get proper and timely treatment? Very disturbing.It was not the people's fault for the medical treatment decisions that were made.
With non-denomination there is not the checks and balances were people can vote on who will be their pastor like the mainstream. The people should have been informed and been able to at least pray about Marilyn taking over - then add Gary in the way it was done is so wrong.
It reeks!
-------------------------------------------------------
> I only met Vere once (in the late 70's) and recall
> having a positive impression of him. Sad, but not
> surprising, how he was treated by the two monsters
> that seized control of the organization.
>
> Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John
> Robert Stevens
> Posted by: larry bobo ()
> Date: August 08, 2018 10:41AM
>
> My sister is married to Vere Thomas' son, Bruce.
> As a result, I've heard Vere's version of John's
> last days before he died. Vere also passed away a
> few years ago. Some posting here may know that
> John asked to see Vere many times in his last
> days, but G & M would not allow it. Finally, when
> Vere was allowed to see John, he was not allowed
> to be alone with him. Some thought this was
> because John might give Vere a leadership role,
> since they had been close since the early days.
> Vere was concerned about the way G & M were
> constantly huddled off together and thought their
> relationship was very inappropriate. There was
> obviously some future planning going on, even
> though they were both married to someone else at
> the time. Vere was sent out of the country, and
> when he returned was stripped of everything he had
> built in Des Moines, including a house that had
> been given to him personally by one of the
> members. He moved back to Hawaii with nothing.
YIkES!
That makes sense tho' I don't know that as a fact.
Fact is that in the old days Vere and John were close from what I saw as visiting ministries.
WOW! Even more disturbing.
I don't think JRS had to die so young - If he went to Mexico for laetrile treatment he already knew it did not work for a relative of mine who died a few years before. Steven McQueen was at the same clinic and he died too.
Where was the revelation to get proper and timely treatment? Very disturbing.It was not the people's fault for the medical treatment decisions that were made.
With non-denomination there is not the checks and balances were people can vote on who will be their pastor like the mainstream. The people should have been informed and been able to at least pray about Marilyn taking over - then add Gary in the way it was done is so wrong.
It reeks!
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
changedagain
()
Date: June 18, 2019 10:33PM
I forgot about John's warning to the fellowship 'not to drink from other fountains.' You're right, this could be the reason why.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: puddington ()
Date: November 15, 2018
I don’t recall where I read this but apparently JRS plagiarized from a lot of other Latter Rain teaching. Nearly all of the First Principles were stolen from someone else. No wonder we were told not to “drink from other fountains”. He didn’t want us discovering how unoriginal his “apostolic word” was.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: puddington ()
Date: November 15, 2018
I don’t recall where I read this but apparently JRS plagiarized from a lot of other Latter Rain teaching. Nearly all of the First Principles were stolen from someone else. No wonder we were told not to “drink from other fountains”. He didn’t want us discovering how unoriginal his “apostolic word” was.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
changedagain
()
Date: June 18, 2019 11:12PM
Sounds about right.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: Tmason
Date: July 06, 2018
larry bobo Wrote:
Those who have served on church corporations know that the Bylaws clearly state that the Apostolic Fathering Ministries have final say on what happens to church properties. The rest of the corporate members do all the leg work, but have no decision making power as far as asset ownership is concerned.
Reepicheep wrote:
Yes, that is my memory too, Larry. And if the church ministries didn't want the church to be sold, stronger coercive tactics would probably be used next. However, G&M made the decisions and received the money, regardless.
I have read the articles of formation for (the) Church of the Living Word, APCO (no public info available) and its subordinate churches. Any church that agrees to become part of TLW gives ALL property to the living word. In a laughable use of words it also reads that none of the proceeds will enure to the benefit of any person.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: Tmason
Date: July 06, 2018
larry bobo Wrote:
Those who have served on church corporations know that the Bylaws clearly state that the Apostolic Fathering Ministries have final say on what happens to church properties. The rest of the corporate members do all the leg work, but have no decision making power as far as asset ownership is concerned.
Reepicheep wrote:
Yes, that is my memory too, Larry. And if the church ministries didn't want the church to be sold, stronger coercive tactics would probably be used next. However, G&M made the decisions and received the money, regardless.
I have read the articles of formation for (the) Church of the Living Word, APCO (no public info available) and its subordinate churches. Any church that agrees to become part of TLW gives ALL property to the living word. In a laughable use of words it also reads that none of the proceeds will enure to the benefit of any person.
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
changedagain
()
Date: June 19, 2019 01:31AM
"designated relationships"--what a nightmare.
This from 'typer' in March of this year:
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: typer
Date: March 09, 2019
Hope I'm not typing too much, but I wanted to share feelings on "designated relationships." A little worried on revealing the person's name since he was related to my wife and still deeply involved in LA church. When we moved to Palmer Lake I was "assigned" a designated relationship which seemed OK at first. Then I wanted to share my heart on some concerns and things went sour. I tried to go to him after a service to make things right, because he was ignoring me (refused to answer me on purpose). He told me he ignored me on purpose to mature me. We started yelling at each other (loud conversation), and the effort by me to work things out blew up. John S. (the apostolic pastor at the time) sent a person over to me to tell me I was being assigned a new designated relationship. He didn't even have the guts to talk to me directly. Anyway I was told to meet this person at a restaurant and talk to him. He was a nice, kind person, but always had a notebook and took notes when I met and talked with him. The worst part was it was not natural, organic, or genuine, but instead an order from headquarters. I was raised Anglican, but it was never real to me. Then in college (1971), I really started seeking to have a relationship with the Lord. I would go over to a house on campus run by the Catholic Church for the college and argue doctrine with the priest, a Father Lester in Billings, Montana. We would get in heated arguments, and not agree on many things (like having to pray to Mary, the mother of God, so she could take it to Jesus to answer a prayer). But even though we never agreed on many things, I never felt shamed until I encountered TLWF authority. After debating with Father Lester on a variety of doctrines, we never came to agreement on many things, but I never felt put down after words, and we still genuinely liked each other. We didn't even know why, but love seemed to prevail. I never thought about "excommunication" or shaming or had those kind of thoughts or dreams until encountering TLWF counseling sessions. That is when my self esteem went south. I'm actually now starting to love myself again since the church quit meeting in October. We are trying out some different churches where all their sermons are online and archived on YouTube FOR FREE. I AM SO GLAD I DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR TAPES/CD's ANYMORE. These mainline churches actually get their word out to the whole world through YouTube, especially soldiers in war zones. Why didn't TLWF do that?
This from 'typer' in March of this year:
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: typer
Date: March 09, 2019
Hope I'm not typing too much, but I wanted to share feelings on "designated relationships." A little worried on revealing the person's name since he was related to my wife and still deeply involved in LA church. When we moved to Palmer Lake I was "assigned" a designated relationship which seemed OK at first. Then I wanted to share my heart on some concerns and things went sour. I tried to go to him after a service to make things right, because he was ignoring me (refused to answer me on purpose). He told me he ignored me on purpose to mature me. We started yelling at each other (loud conversation), and the effort by me to work things out blew up. John S. (the apostolic pastor at the time) sent a person over to me to tell me I was being assigned a new designated relationship. He didn't even have the guts to talk to me directly. Anyway I was told to meet this person at a restaurant and talk to him. He was a nice, kind person, but always had a notebook and took notes when I met and talked with him. The worst part was it was not natural, organic, or genuine, but instead an order from headquarters. I was raised Anglican, but it was never real to me. Then in college (1971), I really started seeking to have a relationship with the Lord. I would go over to a house on campus run by the Catholic Church for the college and argue doctrine with the priest, a Father Lester in Billings, Montana. We would get in heated arguments, and not agree on many things (like having to pray to Mary, the mother of God, so she could take it to Jesus to answer a prayer). But even though we never agreed on many things, I never felt shamed until I encountered TLWF authority. After debating with Father Lester on a variety of doctrines, we never came to agreement on many things, but I never felt put down after words, and we still genuinely liked each other. We didn't even know why, but love seemed to prevail. I never thought about "excommunication" or shaming or had those kind of thoughts or dreams until encountering TLWF counseling sessions. That is when my self esteem went south. I'm actually now starting to love myself again since the church quit meeting in October. We are trying out some different churches where all their sermons are online and archived on YouTube FOR FREE. I AM SO GLAD I DON'T HAVE TO PAY FOR TAPES/CD's ANYMORE. These mainline churches actually get their word out to the whole world through YouTube, especially soldiers in war zones. Why didn't TLWF do that?
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
NancyB
()
Date: June 19, 2019 01:55AM
changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds about right.
>
> Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John
> Robert Stevens
> Posted by: Tmason
> Date: July 06, 2018
>
> larry bobo Wrote:
> Those who have served on church corporations
> know that the Bylaws clearly state that the
> Apostolic Fathering Ministries have final say on
> what happens to church properties. The rest of the
> corporate members do all the leg work, but have no
> decision making power as far as asset ownership is
> concerned.
>
> Reepicheep wrote:
> Yes, that is my memory too, Larry. And if the
> church ministries didn't want the church to be
> sold, stronger coercive tactics would probably be
> used next. However, G&M made the decisions and
> received the money, regardless.
>
> I have read the articles of formation for (the)
> Church of the Living Word, APCO (no public info
> available) and its subordinate churches. Any
> church that agrees to become part of TLW gives ALL
> property to the living word. In a laughable use of
> words it also reads that none of the proceeds will
> enure to the benefit of any person.
We all have questions with no real answers about the corporate juggling of The Church of the Living Word / Living Word Fellowship.
I'm not a lawyer but I can dig out hopefully relevant articles that may help us to ask the right questions ( demand) and understand the answered better IF hargrave or leaders are transparent.
Who Can Sign Documents?
[www.churchlawandtax.com]
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds about right.
>
> Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John
> Robert Stevens
> Posted by: Tmason
> Date: July 06, 2018
>
> larry bobo Wrote:
> Those who have served on church corporations
> know that the Bylaws clearly state that the
> Apostolic Fathering Ministries have final say on
> what happens to church properties. The rest of the
> corporate members do all the leg work, but have no
> decision making power as far as asset ownership is
> concerned.
>
> Reepicheep wrote:
> Yes, that is my memory too, Larry. And if the
> church ministries didn't want the church to be
> sold, stronger coercive tactics would probably be
> used next. However, G&M made the decisions and
> received the money, regardless.
>
> I have read the articles of formation for (the)
> Church of the Living Word, APCO (no public info
> available) and its subordinate churches. Any
> church that agrees to become part of TLW gives ALL
> property to the living word. In a laughable use of
> words it also reads that none of the proceeds will
> enure to the benefit of any person.
We all have questions with no real answers about the corporate juggling of The Church of the Living Word / Living Word Fellowship.
I'm not a lawyer but I can dig out hopefully relevant articles that may help us to ask the right questions ( demand) and understand the answered better IF hargrave or leaders are transparent.
Who Can Sign Documents?
Key point 4-06. Clergy who sign legal documents in their own name with no indication that they are signing in a representative capacity on behalf of their church may be personally liable on the document.Quote
Church Law & Tax
Key point 6-06.2.Officers and directors must be legally authorized to act on behalf of their church. Legal authority can be expressed, implied, inherent, or apparent. In addition, a church can ratify the unauthorized actions of its officers or directors, but this is not required.Quote
Church Law & Tax
[www.churchlawandtax.com]
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
NancyB
()
Date: June 19, 2019 02:03AM
We in Washington, Iowa in particular thought we would have a convalescent home for our aging in the church.
ZIP, Nada- Did not happen- Rip-off!
Here's a link to Minimize or Avoid Problems when Abandoning Projects with Designated Funds by Richard R. Hammar
When people were donating to specific projects does anyone know if that statement was ever included to say- "let's build Rick and amphitheater instead!"
ZIP, Nada- Did not happen- Rip-off!
Here's a link to Minimize or Avoid Problems when Abandoning Projects with Designated Funds by Richard R. Hammar
Churches that solicit funds for designated projects face difficult choices when they abandon a project and are left with the task of disposing of funds that were donated for that project. These problems can be avoided if the church simply includes a statement similar to the following when soliciting funds for a specific project:Quote
Church Law & Tax
By contributing to this project, donors acknowledge that the church has full authority to apply contributions designated for this project to other purposes in the event the project is canceled or oversubscribed.Quote
Church Law & Tax
When people were donating to specific projects does anyone know if that statement was ever included to say- "let's build Rick and amphitheater instead!"
Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by:
NancyB
()
Date: June 19, 2019 02:20AM
Inquiring minds want to know if Hargraves homes are or have been considered "parsonage"?
I'm not a tax attorney for wealthy preachers- so here are the basics that the IRS says about pastors homes and income tax.
Ministers' Compensation & Housing
I'm a minister and receive a salary plus a housing allowance. Is the housing allowance considered income and where do I report it?
Answer
A minister's housing allowance (sometimes called a parsonage allowance or a rental allowance) is excludable from gross income for income tax purposes but not for self-employment tax purposes.
the amount officially designated (in advance of payment) as a housing allowance; the amount actually used to provide or rent a home; or
the fair market rental value of the home (including furnishings, utilities, garage, etc.).
[www.irs.gov]
Is Church Parsonage Tax Deductible? ( I wonder how many parsonages hargraves claims and what is reasonable?)
[www.investopedia.com] › Personal Finance › Taxes › Income Tax
Jun 11, 2018 - Although parsonage allowance is deducted for federal income tax purposes, it is not deducted for self-employment tax purposes. ... Note that although someone in a church may be referred to as a minister, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) may not regard that individual as a minister for tax purposes.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2019 02:24AM by NancyB.
I'm not a tax attorney for wealthy preachers- so here are the basics that the IRS says about pastors homes and income tax.
Ministers' Compensation & Housing
[/quote]QuestionQuote
IRS
I'm a minister and receive a salary plus a housing allowance. Is the housing allowance considered income and where do I report it?
Answer
A minister's housing allowance (sometimes called a parsonage allowance or a rental allowance) is excludable from gross income for income tax purposes but not for self-employment tax purposes.
If you receive as part of your salary (for services as a minister) an amount officially designated (in advance of payment) as a housing allowance, and the amount isn’t more than reasonable pay for your services, you can exclude from gross income the lesser of the following amounts:Quote
IRS
the amount officially designated (in advance of payment) as a housing allowance; the amount actually used to provide or rent a home; or
the fair market rental value of the home (including furnishings, utilities, garage, etc.).
[www.irs.gov]
Is Church Parsonage Tax Deductible? ( I wonder how many parsonages hargraves claims and what is reasonable?)
Parsonage Allowance - InvestopediaQuote
Turbo Tax
[www.investopedia.com] › Personal Finance › Taxes › Income Tax
Jun 11, 2018 - Although parsonage allowance is deducted for federal income tax purposes, it is not deducted for self-employment tax purposes. ... Note that although someone in a church may be referred to as a minister, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) may not regard that individual as a minister for tax purposes.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2019 02:24AM by NancyB.
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