40 Years - I agree with some additions. The forensic audit needs to also look at the Trust managed by ApCo as well as offering and spending records for any account used to construct the amphitheatre, the Rayen party house, the horse barn and corral behind the Rayen house, the Christmas Truck, That Studio, the bars at various churches and any other project overseen or at the direction of Rick Holbrook.

I would also add that there must be an admission of responsibility for having knowledge of Rick Holbrook's frequent and ongoing sexual abuse of minors and adults in the TLWF and for not doing anything about it.

40 Years - you were more eloquent than me so you may reword this.

Maybe we should draft a document that all of us sign and send it. Just thinking about what it would do.

Cloudwatcher Wrote:

> So lets keep
> the blame where it belongs--squarely on Gary
> Hargrave. It is in his court to do the right
> thing. But I for one am not holding my breath.

The fact that Gary apparently has already denied being aware of Rick's wrongdoing all these years is not a good sign. It's perfectly reasonable, given our long history in TLWF, to be wary of any overtures coming from him or his representatives. Who wants to live the rest of their lives being subject to people operating in bad faith? TLWF needs to earn the trust of people they have screwed over the years, and the first step is to recognize there has been a surfeit of feedback from expats to know and acknowledge where the problems lie. Hint: start with the top leaders.

p.s. this forum has been going on for over ten years now, and there is 690 pages of comments...which should be enough material to get a clue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2018 10:19PM by changedagain.

Onion. I have another question. If a TLW leader such as an elder or pastor uses their spiritual clout to seduce an adult, isn’t this also illegal? We often call this “spirtual abuse”, but isn’t there a legal term for it? In a situation where the victim would not normally have sex, but they agree to, because of the perps power over them due to their position as a ministry. It is certainly an abuse of power.

Puddington - There are many factors that make sexual seduction illegal, in fact if "consent" is obtained by false representation or coercion then the consent could be viewed as void and the sex then becomes rape.


All rapists say it was consensual sex instead of a violent crime.

From what I have learned from several of Rick Holbrook's victims, he has a pattern of seduction where he uses "the word of God" his being JRS' son and JRS would want the person to be with Rick. If denied he becomes mean and abusive and has physically touched victims in a way that would be called sexual assault.

Consent is an interesting topic to think about or research. If someone is fraudulently induced to give something (money, time) does the giver then have a right to get their gift back - slave labor versus minimum wage - etc.

If a doctor removes the wrong body part in surgery, not only is there an issue of medical malpractice but there is also a claim for assault because the doctor did not have permission/consent to touch the patient's body outside of doing surgery on the correct body part.

Also - someone asked about crossing state lines with a minor for sex. BIG no no. Crossing the state lines, using electronics for illegal communication, all can bring in the Feds because the crimes become federal crimes.

People need to handle their victimization in the way that assists the healing process but it seems like there should start being quite a few police reports. Even if the statute of limitations has expired, making a report and including the information that the criminal conduct has been ongoing for over 30 years and continues to this day, is important and relevant. A police report is an important tool even if the police don't take action.

Thank you, Onion

In December 1972 Brother Stevens disappeared for an entire day and a few days later he went to the Valley Church and claimed that he'd been caught up in the spirit and taken 7 years into the future where he saw the Kingdom. As he explained his vision and his sense of losing all track of time that day, some of the young prophets speculated about black holes and time warps in the spirit where time did not matter. That vision of the Kingdom became the basis for a lot of the preaching for the next 7 years.

Many people and churches dedicated their lives and their survival planning and their life decisions around that 7-year date and the revelation that John was the apostle to the Kingdom. Twenty years later a woman from the Valley church got word to Gary and Marilyn that she had been with John on that December 12th in 1972. A lot of people around the Living Word building gossiped about the story, but nobody said or perhaps knows if John actually had his vision that day or if he was just with someone not his wife for the day. Aimee McPherson once disappeared mysteriously and later claimed that she'd been kidnapped and taken to Mexico or somewhere -- it's not that uncommon for ministers to try to cover their tracks.

It's like a Mormon hearing that Joseph Smith hadn't really found magic tablets and translated a new version of the Bible for latter day saints. How do you say, okay maybe that didn't happen but the rest of our church is still the true church of the end time. Joseph Smith's vision was not confirmed by others and John's claims were not really confirmed by others -- he was the leader and knowing that he had a special insight into the Kingdom was a draw.

Nothing about this disclosure was mentioned to the churches -- other than a few veiled words about how John's real problem was disobedience -- and not giving himself enough to Marilyn. (Another warning for people to shape up and get with the program.) Gary warned cryptically that things might be coming down that would shake people's loyalty but it would only be proof that they never had a revelation.

One of Rick's escapades also surfaced sometime in the 90s but he was not the only thing that was wrong in the fellowship. Going back to the 70s there were dozens of accounts of financial and sexual abuse by the pastors of many of the large churches, along with mistreatment of the people. After Gary & Marilyn took over, there was still large scale psychological abuse and reckless shepherding that left a lot of casualties. Marilyn had anger issues and would often lash out violently at those she felt were violating her spirit or offending her. This was interpreted as how the Lord felt about those people, especially since she was being promoted as the Lord in the earth and there was no "God in the sky" or "God in your brain" that you could trust. Submission to her as Christ in the flesh was the order of the day.

For every young person who came forth as a talented and accomplished adult, there were many more who were cast aside or labeled or discarded. Amazingly, Gary Hargrave has continued to promote John's vision as the plumbline for the fellowship even after he knew the background. (He might know something that no one else knows.)

Maybe the fellowship is in its death throes and is winding down due to dwindling membership, an aging congregation and the urgent need for finances to support the many facilities on an annual basis. It is also harder to isolate people from the world around them since they have so much access to what's going on outside the church walls. The messages follow the same pattern of Feasts and winter months and Purims to celebrate Marilyn and Passovers to leave Egypt and summer camps to be the prophets who rule the nations, along with reaching out to other churches and groups. But while the messages may be getting more orthodox in their delivery, their claims about how they are changing the whole earth are -- who knows?

For sure there is a crisis of confidence and trust -- similar to the Catholic church where the highest leaders are saying "We had no idea of the extent of the corruption in our midst." But the corruption was institutionalized through the years -- which is why it's kept repeating itself.

It's possible that the whole movement has just run its course and the world is waiting for others who can find a way to make a difference without hurting so many people in the process. They might not even come out of the Christian world

We've still been given a precious opening to move on. The past abuses were painful and for sure left scars but it doesn't mean some of your best days are not still ahead of you, not behind you.

The name I chose for this forum is Saw enough -- I don't want to focus on the past that much and I'm no expert with an inside track but I saw enough to feel that it is better to be out of there than in there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2018 01:36PM by Saw enough.

SAW ENOUGH:

Like you said, ". . . it is better to be out of there than in there."

That is an excellent post, Saw. I was thinking about how the LW members are isolated. And how much the internet has helped change that. It used to be difficult to research JRS. Or to try and determine if TLWF is a cult. But with these forums and other on-line references it is easier to find information. Unfiltered information.

I suppose the loyal LW sheep have been told to stay away from these forums. They have been told that these are trashy tabloid stories and are to be discounted as lies. All 700 pages worth.

I am extremely grateful for FactNet and Rick Ross. And all the posters who spoke up and helped break the chains that held me in this cult. Thank you.

Saw - Thank you for your eloquent post.

The only thing I want to be careful about is encouraging people to "move on" and "not focus on the past." People find healing in a lot of different directions and especially with sexual assault victims. Some focus on the past, exposure of the sexual assault, and standing up for ourselves is often necessary to achieving healing from that particular trauma.

I focus a lot on Rick Holbrook when I speak of sexual assault within the walk because I know that it has harmed many people we haven't even heard from yet and that his pattern is continuing in full force, and active at the current (or very recent) time. Likewise, the cover-up and refusal to take responsibility for the completely wrong handling of this issue within the walk continues today.

If the person with JRS in 1972 was the woman who exposed that she had given birth to his biological son about 20 years later, then that would be Mary Ann Buckingham Miller. If it was NOT her, I would like to know about it even if you (Saw) don't feel comfortable repeating her name. Just knowing there was another woman involved that intimately with JRS during 1972 would help with the timeline I am working on. Thanks.

It is interesting that we are discussing sexual abuse within the Living Word, while at the same time we are witnessing it on the national level with the SCOTUS confirmation hearings. If one of Rick’s victims spoke up, would she be taken seriously? Would it quickly be glossed over? Would she be slut-shamed? Perhaps Gary & Silas have had there own discretions so they don’t want this topic brought to light.