I decided to listen to a recent TLWF message the other day so I could hear the message completely objectively.

The main point of the message was this:

If you are obedient to God and his will for you, you will not die. If you do not obey God and his will for you, you will die.


Its really nice to hear how crazy that sounds and be able to separate myself from it. When I was in the church I kinda figured that I would kick the bucket even if I tried my hardest to do the will of God. I don't know whether it was because people who were "doing the will of God" were continuing to die, or if it was because I honestly knew I couldn't keep up with all the words adding onto God's will for me.... it was kind of becoming a long list... but I always believed that after a long life of trying to do God's will I would eventually die. There were words that Gary brought that sometimes made me think differently though. He would talk about the Kingdom coming to Earth and it kind of felt like paradise would eventually come down to earth and save us all from our inevitable deaths. But whatever.

So after listening to the message, and hearing the congregants cheer and agree when the speaker spoke of eternal life, I've found another piece of control the leadership have over the congregants.

If you obey the word of God (aka, what your pastor tells you) than you will live forever! Hurray! But... if you don't listen, then boy oh boy... you've got some consequences waiting for you. Heck, penalty of death isn't good enough for the leadership, no! If you don't do what God (pastors) say, then the pastors will help deal out Gods judgement.

Hey changedagain. Is there a real anonymous survey going around? Is it being circulated by TLWF, or someone else?


changedagain Wrote:
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> I hope I am not the only one who answered the
> latest confidential TLWF survey this way. Boy,
> I'll be in real trouble!
>
> Name something you have received by serving
> Christ in the Flesh
> PTSD

cultfree Wrote:
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> Hey changedagain. Is there a real anonymous survey
> going around? Is it being circulated by TLWF, or
> someone else?

No, there is not cultfree--at least to my knowledge. But my answer is accurate, if that survey existed. BTW, I don't think anything was ever confidential/anonymous in that organization. Most of the time, from what I surmised, you were asked questions mainly to probe whether you were loyal or not to leadership. I don't think anything else mattered.
Any information you provided could and would be used against you.

p.s. obedience, obedience, obedience

The PTSD answer to the imagined survey is hilarious - except that it is sadly true. I wish there was a survey that we could get our hands on. Wouldn't we have fun with our answers?

I heard a rumor last night from someone who said it was a rumor so now this is a third or fourth hand rumor - that Gary is resigning from the leadership position in the churches and basically retiring and that there is a group of ministries who will act together to oversee everything in his place.

So now instead of one main voice crushing us, it will be a group of voices.

I also heard (less of a rumor possibly because it is verifiable) that after the obedience hammer at Shiloh, Gary has been speaking a lot against "heirarchy" and that coincides with him resigning/retiring.

Does anyone know any more about this? Interesting concept. Maybe rumors feeding thru to see what various people (like us) respond to. Who knows.

Here is one thing from personal experience today -- I was going thru North Hollywood so I cruised the Blic neighborhood. Generally I would feel a deep ache in my heart but today all I felt was kind of a chuckle about being in my old neighborhood. It was kind of amazing and reaffirmed for me that getting free is a delicious thing.

Unless Gary is preaching against hierarchy because he has seen the error of his ways, then I find that extremely ironic considering he has been a huge perpetrator and beneficiary of the intensely hierarchical structure of TLWF. Hierarchy is basically the fabric of the Fellowship. Not once did I hear Gary, Marilyn, or any of the other leaders tell people not to treat them any different than the sheep. In fact, quite the opposite. Leaders were outfitted with a bevy of sheep to serve them in whatever capacity they wished. We cleaned their houses, mowed their lawns, babysat their kids and juiced their fucking wheatgrass, all under the guise of training and learning submission or some shit like that. They have always perpetuated the worshipping of leaders and the idea that sheep are inferior to them.

One thing that always bothered me was how at social functions like Seder dinners, etc., the leaders always had fancy head table set-ups with silverware and real plates, and people to wait on them, while the minion sheep ate off of paper and plastic and went through the buffet line. That sends a clear message, and it is definitely not a message of anti-hierarchy. A truly humble leader with a shepherd's heart would not allow himself to be exalted and given preferential treatment. And can we talk about the "Green Room" at CLW? I can't even.

How many times were we told that we had to relate to God through our shepherd AKA: Christ in the Flesh, and that we couldn’t just have a relationship with “God in the sky” as they like to call it. We were constantly discouraged from exercising our own intuition and personal relationship with God to make decisions; rather we were commanded to submit everything to our shepherds for “confirmation” because our own instincts were not to be trusted. Oh, and when you do submit things, get ready to wait several months to hear anything back. And let’s not even get started on the myriad of sermons about obedience. I realize now these were just control tactics.

If Gary does resign, I imagine that means the current overseeing ministry team of Craig & Phyllis, Rick & Lorena, Silas & Shuma will be in charge of everything. The tight rein will get even tighter if that happens...I won't even begin to address the myriad of atrocious behaviors and abuses I've witnessed on the part of almost every single one of those people.

You Are Responsible To Speak The Truth In Love
August 19, 2018 - by Gary Hargrave

[garyhargrave.com]

(If this had been going on since the beginning, there would be no need for this forum.)

Reveal - You express it beautifully.

I have so many questions when I try to picture these people as unfettered church leaders. Especially Rick and Lorena. How will they keep up tape sales with any one of them preaching? Especially Rick. Can you picture Rick behind a pulpit speaking? It would be 2 hours of uh..... duh..... and probably him moving restlessly in his skin tight (at the age of 59) jeans. Rick always tried to be part of Roger and Scott's comedy team and it was so sad to watch because he wasn't clever, he had no talent and he was boring to the point of embarrassment. He might actually have a brief period of comic success should he ever try to sell himself as a preacher.

I remember an old Tarzan movie (black and white, Johnny Weissmuller, the best) where the evil king guy was sacrificing people including scantily clad women. That would be more Rick's type of church service. He would take all the money so he could have his slave labor build as many amphitheaters and studios party homes, bars, stables, etc., as he wants and then surround himself with naked women that keep getting younger and younger. As long as the slaves (everyone else) continued to serve the little king and give him their service, work and money, they could stay alive until he wanted some additional entertainment and then they would be slaughtered too. And he would move on to a new bunch of younger womenm, younger men because they can work harder and might not see thru Rick's shallow veneer and might be interested in Rick teaching them how to pleasure themselves sexually. Not that Rick does anything for himself.

Sometimes the street smart side of me starts to gag so violently that I have to express how distasteful these people are to me.

I will post more intelligently like Reveal does, next time.

reveal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> One thing that always bothered me was how at
> social functions like Seder dinners, etc., the
> leaders always had fancy head table set-ups with
> silverware and real plates, and people to wait on
> them, while the minion sheep ate off of paper and
> plastic and went through the buffet line. That
> sends a clear message, and it is definitely not a
> message of anti-hierarchy. A truly humble leader
> with a shepherd's heart would not allow himself to
> be exalted and given preferential treatment.

Yes

kBOY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You Are Responsible To Speak The Truth
> In Love
> August 19, 2018 - by Gary Hargrave

> [garyhargrave.com]

> (If this had been going on since the beginning,
> there would be no need for this forum.)

Yeah, I guess he's decided to start doing it :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2018 09:00AM by changedagain.

Makes me wonder how Gary could not have known what Rick has been up to all these years. It's probably smart Gary is distancing himself from the L.A. church, given what is coming to light. He needs, first and foremost, to protect himself...so the 'living word' can continue to be spoken to the world :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2018 12:51AM by changedagain.