puddington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...and I hear all six kids were born during the
> same week. You’ve been very busy Mr.
> Changedagain. : )

THAT IS A LIE!!!!
(four of them were)

I think those who functioned in positions of authority, like changedagain, may have more insight to the dynamics of TLWF structure and therefore more apt to see where the real direction was coming from. I remember the weekly calls to Apco, where the smallest details of operating the church were discussed. I do not recall personal initiative ever being a part of the discussion – you did what you were told and that’s what made you a good shepherd. I watched many through the years follow directions that ended up going south, and then observing the leadership who had been directing them, distance themselves from the outcome by saying they were false shepherds or they didn’t really have our spirit etc. I would suggest they did have their spirit, and that really was the source of the problem. The ones who actually had God’s Spirit knew there was something amiss in what they were being directed to do.

Many who have left TLWF, left over very legitimate wounds that were caused by situations that were very ungodly. If you spoke up at the time, you were outcast. Later, when the leadership realized there really was a legitimate problem, they would subtly make changes without really accepting any responsibility for it or admitting it was not God who had been directing things after all – all in an attempt to preserve the illusion of an infallible word and risking the loss of control.

The real tragedy is the hundreds of lives that have been so trashed by TLWF that they want nothing to do with God – and it was never God who wounded them in the first place. People were responding instinctively to situations that they knew in their hearts were not right. My last words to Marilyn when she was trying to get me to stay in the church were, ”I don’t know what the truth is, but I know this is not it.” You will know them by their fruit. How can you call yourself a shepherd and not care for the wounded sheep like the Good Shepherd does – especially when it was you that wounded them?

larry bobo Wrote:

> The real tragedy is the hundreds of lives that
> have been so trashed by TLWF that they want
> nothing to do with God – and it was never God who
> wounded them in the first place. People were
> responding instinctively to situations that they
> knew in their hearts were not right. My last
> words to Marilyn when she was trying to get me to
> stay in the church were, ”I don’t know what the
> truth is, but I know this is not it.”

Perfect--I'm glad you said that to her.That took guts, given the environment you were in.

Bravo Larry.

Lot of agreement among men here. Sometimes G&M gave direction. Not always. Why can't you see that. Is it because you were taught at all cost to protect your fellow ministry. I said to changedagain before. The harm I received was not a result of direction from G&M. Because of my mom. M never abused me. Neither did G for that matter. Those sexually abused by ministries didn't get that direction from G&M. It's pretty sickening to see you pat each other on the back here.

NickleandDimed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot of agreement among men here. Sometimes G&M
> gave direction. Not always. Why can't you see
> that. Is it because you were taught at all cost to
> protect your fellow ministry.
No

> Those sexually abused by ministries didn't get
> that direction from G&M. It's pretty sickening to
> see you pat each other on the back here.

I've never commented on the subject of sexual abuse. That was not anything I experienced in the cult, nor anyone I knew personally. I write from my experience--dealing with other types of abuse, much of it originating from the teaching and example of G & M. At no time did I say that G & M directed ministries to sexually abuse members of the fellowship. My emphasis has always been on the authoritarian nature of the movement, where members' acceptance is based almost entirely on their loyalty and obedience. This emphasis sets the tone where all types of abuse can occur, and be tolerated if it doesn't negatively impact G & M...or going further back, John.

NickelandDimed,
I hope I can navigate what I see as a misunderstanding here without taking away from what you just said because it's a very good point and really struck a chord with me.

I completely recognize that people usurped their roles as shepherds or ministries to do things behind closed doors that nobody-including G&M-had direct knowledge of. That is just sickening, and people should absolutely bring it up. I don't think offenders deserve anonymity and I do not advocate protecting any abusers--be it emotional, physical, or sexual. In fact, I hope they get theirs in this life or the next.

Again, I can only speak for my own posts, and in so much as where I devote my focus. I still see G&M as responsible, especially where cover-ups are involved.

They created a system that perpetuates abuse through emphasis on complete submission. Their actions and their sermons act as enablers for abusers. Take JRS' word on how Elishas will be blessed by God for submitting to an abusive master, even if that master is acting in sin. JRS effectively told that victim to continue to get beaten and that god would bless him or her for it. That is enabling abuse.

This may not be true for your case, but certainly in others church leadership actively covered up abuse, just as the catholic church did, by moving leaders around or silencing victims to protect their own reputation. In attempting to save sweep abuse under the rug, they are complicit in perpetuating it.

Now, I sincerely hope that my posts do not detract from your posts and that we can both find closure on this forum. I am not trying to protect any abusers, including this Jimmy Stewart guy. Again, I very much value your insight and your opinion here. Press on, by all accounts, and godspeed, fellow pathfinder.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 02:19AM by GSchaeff.

Sexual abuse was more than just a rumor in TLWF. I was personally abused by a gay pastor as well as a woman everyone would know who was around in the 70’s. She wrote many of the worship songs sung during that era. I was 15 and both the man the woman were in their 30’s. I would never suggest their actions were directed by the leadership, however, the atmosphere was so toxic that many things existed under the radar that I do not now see in a healthier church. Hopefully, my perception is better in my 60’s than it was in my teens. In hindsight, how did I as a 15 year old, and my teen friends, know this “pastor” was gay and John, who ordained him with his great revelation, not have a clue. He was much more than a sincere gay man looking for answers – he was an evil predator.

The wounds many received in TLWF were certainly not limited to G&M, but on the other hand, they certainly directed the culture. I remember trying to figure out why my local shepherds treated people so harshly until I had my first discipline experience with Apco. It seemed every other word started with f..king this and that. No wonder they acted the way they did. Those who have been abused, abuse. I heard stories of the way Apco was treated by G&M and could only imagine how G&M were treated by “God” – especially the god who wants to kill, steal, and destroy that they seemed to serve. Anyone remember John's first encounter with "Jesus" in Holy Jim Canyon? It was not to bring life.

There was one situation of sexual abuse that I was familiar with. It had to do with a sheep submitting themselves to an elder as their “designated relationship” and as “christ in the flesh”. The elder took advantage of the situation and coerced sex acts with this sheep against the sheep’s will. The person was devastated. G&M heard about it and thankfully removed the elder. At a meeting about this, someone asked Gary an interesting question. The conversation went something like this:

“Gosh Gary, maybe we need to rethink this whole shepherding over each other idea. It seems to give too much power over people who can become abusers”

Gary’s response “ We don’t need to change anything. This is just colateral damage in the battle for the kingdom. There’s always going to be casualties.”

So yes, G&M didn’t sanction the abuse. But they didn’t do anything to correct the environment for this abuse to breed. It’s still like that today.

The only effort they made was to direct the victim to keep quiet about it. I think this makes them culpable.

Puddington,

Exactly. If any current member is reading this and doubting whether John, Marilyn or Gary are culpable in perpetuating a culture of abuse, ask yourself this simple question:

"Here we have at least three people on this page alone who have spoken about sexual assault in the church. Why has there never been a formal investigation into any of these pastors, why were the police never notified about this?"

The answer is just as you described. "This is collateral damage, and there's always going to be casualties." It went under the rug to protect Gary's kingdom.

The number is much, much higher than 3 by the way. Larry, I'm very sorry to hear about your experience also. I hope you taking the courage to share it will wake some current members up.