Interesting. No doubt John was a drinker. However, I don't think his drinking occurred during the church services (unlike one of my pastors). I suppose if he drank alone, and didn't involve any members of the church, that would be O.K.--according to the principle he apparently applied to Gruenberg.
Weird how the years before he died, the culture obviously changed, at least in some of the churches. Many felt they were being 'religious' if they didn't engage in at least some drinking/partying.
Anyway, now I have a shot or two of whiskey at the end of the day. It feels good doing that without the necessity of linking it with an intercessory prayer ("We loose the Man of God!", "We bind the Nephilim to the pit!"). It took me a while to realize the two activities did not have to be combined.

NickleandDimed Wrote:
> John went ahead and removed
> Gruenberg. He could have just counseled him. Told
> him to end the clique. Instead he removed
> Gruenberg. It humiliated Gruenberg. No one thought
> he should have been removed. To me, that kind of
> discipline was part of the 10% rat poison.

Really. Such an uneven, arbitrary way of dealing with people. No wonder the fellowship suffered with deep insecurity. Your apostle/pastor could turn on you anytime and publicly humiliate you, if you happened to violate their sensibilities...which seemed to vary from day to day.

Nickle, Reep and changed-the events at Grace Chapel Honolulu were happening all over the Walk. It was 1979 and the kingdom didn't come. Woodrow Nichols said JRS was restructuring the Walk and removing leaders he didn't trust. He mentions in his book some 34 changes. JRS also removed Bickhart and RD. It also seems that by 1979 or maybe earlier JRS had received his cancer diagnosis. The "clique" thing may have been a facade. I can't imagine the congregants snitching. Many of the local Honolulu members were long time loyalist to JRS, but it's not part of the culture of Hawaiians or Asians to cause people to lose face. There was this thinking, though, that if you served JRS, you would end up with the double portion. Larry M. was JRS's driver and that service may have had JRS thinking that was sufficient for Larry M. to become a pastor of the Honolulu Church. Hello....he eventually was removed too. Doesn't it sound like there was a lot of paranoia in the air. Well, that's my version of Walk history in 1979.

P.S. Nichols also mentions that when JRS was excommunicated in the early 1950's from his church, at least he got a hearing. I am not aware that anyone such as Larry M, Dan Staton or John Miller or anyone else excommunicated from the LW ever got a hearing. Plz correct me if I am wrong. Also, none of links recently posted to the Nichol's book work. I'm pretty good at finding resources on the web, but I was not able to find any links on the Internet to the Nichol's book today. Fortunately I previously saved a PDF file.

lily rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nickle, Reep and changed-the events at Grace
> Chapel Honolulu were happening all over the Walk.
> It was 1979 and the kingdom didn't come. Woodrow
> Nichols said JRS was restructuring the Walk and
> removing leaders he didn't trust. He mentions in
> his book some 34 changes. JRS also removed
> Bickhart and RD. It also seems that by 1979 or
> maybe earlier JRS had received his cancer
> diagnosis. The "clique" thing may have been a
> facade. I can't imagine the congregants snitching.
> Many of the local Honolulu members were long time
> loyalist to JRS, but it's not part of the culture
> of Hawaiians or Asians to cause people to lose
> face. There was this thinking, though, that if
> you served JRS, you would end up with the double
> portion. Larry M. was JRS's driver and that
> service may have had JRS thinking that was
> sufficient for Larry M. to become a pastor of the
> Honolulu Church. Hello....he eventually was
> removed too. Doesn't it sound like there was a lot
> of paranoia in the air. Well, that's my version of
> Walk history in 1979.
>
> P.S. Nichols also mentions that when JRS was
> excommunicated in the early 1950's from his
> church, at least he got a hearing. I am not aware
> that anyone such as Larry M, Dan Staton or John
> Miller or anyone else excommunicated from the LW
> ever got a hearing. Plz correct me if I am wrong.
> Also, none of links recently posted to the
> Nichol's book work. I'm pretty good at finding
> resources on the web, but I was not able to find
> any links on the Internet to the Nichol's book
> today. Fortunately I previously saved a PDF file.

Lily Rose, I whole-heartedly agree that 1979-1980 was an exceedingly weird time, even for the Walk. Among the many huge changes: JRS' divorce and subsequent marriage to Marilyn, the Big Trip with 34 changes of church leadership, JRS' illness.

Too bad that the links aren't working for the Nichols book. Fortunately, I also saved a copy. Here is a quote regarding the time period you wrote about:

However, the whole time during the "Big Trip," Stevens was sizing up his empire, realizing that if he didn't stay on top of things, it would fall apart, most of the areas being run by men just as powerful as he. If he didn't enter into the Kingdom as announced, the main glue that held the empire together would lose its bonding power. Therefore Stevens decided to restructure the Walk, putting men that were totally loyal to him in trouble spots, removing the leaders he didn't trust, putting them in places where his bases were covered.

To say that JRS restructured the Walk is an understatement. There were several long-term pastors at that time who had been named as apostles, including Fred Bickhart. All of them were basically demoted and moved to other locations. Fred was told to go to Des Moines, IA, but I don't think that actually ever happened.

It was the time of the second generation taking over, and not in a gracious way. John needed the second generation to kick out the leaders from the first generation for him. And we all fell for it, hook, line and sinker. The kicker is that many of those very same second generation leaders have basically been dealt the very same treatment by G&M all these many years later. Ironic.

Is TLWF finally down to only two people who can't get kicked out or side-lined? Congratulations to Gary Hargrave and Rick Holbrook. You guys won the grand prize. But what is it worth if everyone else gets fed up and leaves? Oh, that's right...greener pastures in Brazil.

acesandates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Changedagain...you are awfully bitter and smug in
> your assessment of the apostolic ministry of JRS.
> Even if he was a charismatic ego (whatever that
> psychologically entailed) he also was an
> authentic apostolic vessel of Christ's spirit. And
> I, for one, twice underwent a direct experience of
> it, and it was spiritually circumcising to my
> heart and full of tranformative grace. I'm truly
> saddened that your subjective assessment of the
> way and experience of the Walk is construed from
> such a dark, victimizing and negative perspective,
> as though your position and rationalized
> understanding, as advanced, is dispositive
> concerning the sum & substance of the movement.
> For me, it was immersion in a latter day
> outpouring of the Resurrection Spirit, one
> imparting a new being to my existence that
> liberated my consciousness and spiritual being
> from the restrictions & stultifying limitations of
> being dead in the without God. Doubtless our
> personal histories are divergent but I still
> "remember that we were at that time separate from
> Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel,
> and strangers to the covenants of promise, having
> no hope and without God in the world.” Eph. 2
> God bless, brother...be well.

So am I to understand that you believe all that stuff---and yet you left? Sounds like you would be a great asset and give confirmation to the delusions that run rampant in the LW. Why don't you go back, repent, and get on with doing the great work instead of harassing people who are actually trying to recover their lives and live them. Your words bring me great sadness when I look at how insane it all really is and it has destroyed my family--and yet the $$$ keeps rolling in--lives ruined by that sick little dictator, G-Man who cannot take one ounce of questioning him. Try it some time and see what happens to you and yours. Godspeed

seventies walker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have to reply to acesandates.
> John Robert Stevens was deceived and was a false
> e prophet.
> I was deceived and thought I was a prophet. We
> e were all deceived and living a lie. >>>>>>>
> Fond memories of the good times do not change
> ge the facts.


Yes, Amen brother.

acesandates Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reep, you can pick away in imitation analysis,
> dissection, or deconstruction of my texts and my
> positions. But here's the thing, YOUR view,
> opinions, judgments are not dispositive of
> anything, other than what you subjectively believe
> was/is the case back then. Equally, you seek to
> conflate and restrict my experience of the
> apostolic ministry to feelings, as though
> "feelings" were somehow an invalid indicator of
> merit simply because there are other categories
> for distinguishing a personal or collective
> experience. But you were not, and still are not,
> the arbiter of what constitutes or evinces the
> truth of JRS'S ministry. Certainly not as to my
> collective experience. And you damn sure arent an
> suthority, religious or otherwise, on the
> authenticity of any outpouring of the Spirit of
> God. I dont recall hearing that you were
> appointed, or designated the judge of the divine
> merit of JRS's ministry. And I certainly dont
> accept your view(s) or judgments as reliable, in
> any way, let alone authoritative on the truth of
> JRS. Get over it, and yourself. Like the rest of
> us, neither the Walk or JRS, or The Living Word,
> stripped you of common sense. Like the rest of us,
> we were participants in a
> socio-spiritual-religious movement. Conflicts are
> inherent to all collective endeavors and states
> of affairs. Many of us were potentially fodder. It
> was up to each individual to test the apostolic
> spirit and word. In a word to CYA. The only thing
> that mattered was our relationship to Christ
> Jesus. Shiloh, Nevada mines, Brazil, South
> Africa...whatever. It was incidental. Some forces,
> socual, spiritual, psychological are just too damn
> large or big for individuals to resist, msnage or
> detect. Risk cannot ve eliminated and we are
> always deliberating and acting with imperfect
> information. I dont understand, after all these
> years, why you and continue mired in bitter
> rejection. Peter, John, Paul left it all and were
> ultimately crucified for their committment to
> resisting the world according to Rome.

Why the fuck are you on this board? Certainly not to help victims. You cling to your beliefs because you are to embarassed to admit you were hoodwinked like the rest of us? You are not convincing anyone here--that is for sure. I figure you are just out to do harm. That is not okay.

This lady knows about the LW in Los Angeles Area and has helped a lot of people.

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Cloudwatcher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This lady knows about the LW in Los Angeles Area
> and has helped a lot of people.
>
> [www.youtube.com]


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