Sounds like a good idea, corboy and puddington.

lily rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I wonder if the idea of infallibility in JRS's
> divine order scheme is confusing to people and
> leading some people to feel it is the unpardonable
> sin and somehow blasphemous to question what they
> feel is the voice of the spirit.

I think that you are exactly right about this, lily rose. I've been thinking of some reasons for members and former members to feel that it is blasphemy to question JRS or his teaching.

•First of all, he was a larger-than-life personality.
•He could hold a large sanctuary of people spellbound.
•He had the ability to make each person feel that he was talking to them
personally.
•He pretty much had everyone convinced that he was the voice of God and the
Apostle to bring in the Kingdom age.
•There was a great deal of emphasis on teaching about divine order, rebellion and
submission.
•Don't forget that he was supposedly both the prophet Samuel and John the Beloved
reincarnated.
•He died, and therefore became even more an icon and object of worship.

These are just a few reasons that occurred to me. It took me many years to be able to say any of this, even to myself, without looking over my shoulder to see if a bolt of lightning was coming, or perhaps the ground was about to open up to swallow me like Korah. In my mind, it would be akin to questioning God himself or speaking ill of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts, the apostles were constantly telling people not to worship them because they were flesh and blood. Paul and Barnabas in Acts 14 and Peter in Acts 10 did not allow people to make them into gods, but said that they were bringing them the good news of the living God. I have come to feel that worship of JRS, and later Marilyn, was nothing short of cultish idolotry. The banishing or demonizing of anyone who disagreed or took exception with the leaders was wrong and unscriptural. People are not God, God is God. I said that once to someone in the fellowship, and they were scandalized. Why?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2018 12:03PM by Reepicheep.

I recall hearing in LW services, teachings about the “unforgivable sin”, i.e. blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It was said that to deny that Christ was coming forth in his people was equivalent to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The LW teaches that the 2nd coming of Christ will happen with Christ coming forth in his body first. Then later, the actual reappearing of Jesus. This doctrine empowers the leaders to claim they have the mind of Christ. It was said often (in back room meetings) that to have “Marilyn’s thinking” was to have the mind of Christ.

Puddington wrote:

Quote

It was said often (in back room meetings) that to have “Marilyn’s thinking” was to have the mind of Christ.

1) What proportion of people in LW were also attending the back room meetings?

2) Were these back room meetings generally known about, or secret.

3) What did a member have to do before he or she was allowed or invited to attend
these back room meetings>

4)Did back room participants have to keep any secrets?

puddington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
puddington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I recall hearing in LW services, teachings about
> the “unforgivable sin”, i.e. blaspheming the Holy
> Spirit. It was said that to deny that Christ was
> coming forth in his people was equivalent to
> blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The LW teaches that
> the 2nd coming of Christ will happen with Christ
> coming forth in his body first. Then later, the
> actual reappearing of Jesus. This doctrine
> empowers the leaders to claim they have the mind
> of Christ. It was said often (in back room
> meetings) that to have “Marilyn’s thinking” was to
> have the mind of Christ.


There was an immense amount of pressure during my 21 years involvement in the walk/TLWF (1976-1997) to regard the voice coming from leadership (John, Marilyn, Gary) as the voice of God. John himself often said from the pulpit that the word he spoke was the equivalent of scripture, and in fact, was elevated beyond scripture since it was supposedly revealing what God was doing now ('living word'). When the mantle supposedly fell to Gary/Marilyn, the same held true. To question them was to question God...committing the original sin in the garden ('hath God said?"). Heavy stuff. With that type of clout over the fellowship, the door to control people's lives (which is really what 'divine order' became") was unlimited. As people who spent many years in this cult have noted in this forum, over and over again, every aspect of a person's life was subject to surveillance by 'Christ in the flesh' (aka Big Brother in the Flesh). I think the purpose of the 'designated relationship' phase during G & M's reign...was to keep tabs on the thoughts and actions of members of the fellowship, so any resistance could be swiftly dealt with. Apologists who scoff at the idea of coercion, either are ignorant (perhaps because they lived on the periphery), or purposely dishonest...for whatever motivation. The place was, and likely still is, saturated with coercion. It's scary even thinking of breaking away from this cult when you are heavily involved...as evidenced by the stories of the many who have done so in this forum, and the difficulties they experienced. The bonds of oppression are powerful.

Reepicheep Wrote:

> I think that you are exactly right about this,
> lily rose. I've been thinking of some reasons for
> members and former members to feel that it is
> blasphemy to question JRS or his teaching.
>
> •First of all, he was a larger-than-life
> personality.
> •He could hold a large sanctuary of people
> spellbound.
> •He had the ability to make each person feel that
> he was talking to them
> personally.
> •He pretty much had everyone convinced that he was
> the voice of God and the
> Apostle to bring in the Kingdom age.
> •There was a great deal of emphasis on teaching
> about divine order, rebellion and
> submission.
> •Don't forget that he was supposedly both the
> prophet Samuel and John the Beloved
> reincarnated.
> •He died, and therefore became even more an icon
> and object of worship.

True
BTW, I recall Gary stating that John's death actually brought down Satan, which if people believe it, would make John even more revered (if that is possible).

Corboy, by my estimates

1) What proportion of people in LW were also attending the back room meetings? Probably only 10%

2) Were these back room meetings generally known about, or secret? Only known to those invited

3) What did a member have to do before he or she was allowed or invited to attend these back room meetings> Worked at the LW building, Blix house or be an elder in good standing with Marilyn

4)Did back room participants have to keep any secrets? Absolutely

I never attended any backroom meetings. But I did continually hear about people receiving words from the Lord and hearing from God speaking directly to their personal situation in personal ministry from the leadership or through prophecy. Most in the forum now recognize those words were just opinions, non authoritative and fallible words. The leadership followed ideas that entered their minds which we were told were from God, not that the word might be from God. This kind of personal revelation led to every imaginable error. I'm going to sound like Oprah. This I know to be true: it was abusive and coercive to bind the fellowship to opinions and fallible words and tell them that obeying such words is the key to God's presence in their lives. For all we know there are still people out there 50 years later still holding on to one of those fake words.

I saw people prophesied over numerous times. Some of what they got was just whacho. And shouldn't have been taken seriously. But it was. You heard a lot of God told me. The spirit just said to me. Fill in the blank. You hear that a lot. In Pentecostal circles. IMO in the LW, they kicked it up a notch. Because John and M, we were told, shared the deity of Christ. And directly spoke God's word. What a snow job!

I believe all of us had a very similar experience when it came to John’s “anointing” and the “revelation” that came from being around him. Some were sustained for several years, and others for several decades by that experience – at least until they could no longer reconcile the discrepancies between John’s teaching and their personal experience in TLWF. John was adamant about our submission to the leaders he commissioned, and it bred nothing but trouble from the very beginning. He was very clear in saying that you could not be connected to him and then refuse to be in relationship to those he placed over you. This forced hierarchy continues today – and so does the bad fruit. The true lordship of Jesus Christ brings freedom - not bondage. It only becomes scary when a human tries to take His place and screws up everybody’s lives.

We all utilized various coping mechanisms, hoping for a better day that never materialized. You could get lost in the “spirit realm” and fantasize that things were happening that really were not (e.g. the kingdom dawning in 1979, the ruling over of governments and economies, and John bringing down Satan with his death from cancer, to name a few). Alcohol very often was the numbing drug of choice, even by John. A leadership position in TLWF salved the insecurity of some and for others, it was the knowledge that they were a part of a chosen few destined to look down of the rest of the world. One thing we all had in common – if you left, you never really did have a revelation in the first place - a fact that was talked up among those that remained. “They went out from us because they never were a part of us”. What we didn’t know was that the guy down the street was saying the same thing to control his followers.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting there never was an experience. The difficult thing to unravel is the legitimacy of it. I would go back to what Reepicheep suggested, and examine the past in light of what Jesus taught. He told us to examine the fruit. For starters, it takes a while for there to be any fruit. I don’t think the glory days paint a true picture – you need to wait a few years in order to see what fruit finally becomes evident.

Over time, how accurate have John’s prophesies been? You could start with, “If they carry me out feet first, then this word was not true.” Did that happen? It takes more honesty and courage to come to the place where you can finally admit that this, as well as many other “prophesies” did not come true, and move on with your life. Besides, the true fruit of the Spirit reveals itself in character traits: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control – not in lofty revelations and failed prophesies devoid of these traits. It’s who you are, not just what you say, that matters.

“Be wary of false preachers who smile a lot, dripping with practiced sincerity. Chances are they are out to rip you off some way or other. Don’t be impressed with charisma; look for character. Who preachers are is the main thing, not what they say. A genuine leader will never exploit your emotions or your pocketbook. These diseased trees with their bad apples are going to be chopped down and burned.” Matthew 7:15-20 The Message

Changedagain, puddington, corboy, lily rose:
(Nickleanddimed and Larry, you too. Didn't mean to leave you out, your posts just magically appeared.)

You all make excellent points. Sometimes you hear the same dogma over and over, until it just sounds normal. Everyone in your group agrees and confirms. If you have a contrary thought, you ignore it, stuff it down and go on. After awhile you don't remember where your beliefs even came from.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. (Sorry, Trekkie reference.)

Changedagain, I can't remember when this changed, but in the late sixties, the Living Word was when John would "be taken over by the spirit of the Lord" and give very long prophecies. I believe that he often or always spoke in the first person at these times, i.e. "I the Lord say unto thee" thus and so. He also spoke in King James English at these times. The prophecies, or Living Words, were published in books by the same name. Then, at some point, everything he said was the Living Word. I had forgotten about that. Maybe that's when he decided that he didn't have to wait for a special anointing because he was "Christ in the flesh".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2018 04:38AM by Reepicheep.