Hi LiamThomasusa,

I don't have an answer to your question, but I'm sure someone who reads the forum does. Hopefully they will respond to you.
Good luck :)

"Let me tell you how to think about..."

Posted by: Saw enough
Date: September 11, 2015 01:31PM

The congregations were raised on a diet of being told what to think. Paul claimed to have the mind of Christ on many issues. Likewise, it was important for people in the Walk to strive to have John's thinking -- sometimes it may have been benign, as in looking at people with the same faith that he was perceived to have. Other times it was "Let me tell you how to think about ..." people who left, people who were under discipline, the elections, husband-wife relationships, raising your children, your finances, shutting down churches, Kingdom businesses, going to seminary, not going to seminary, unequal yokes, pretty much any aspect of a person's life came under the purview of "Let us tell you how to think about this." If you assumed that there was no difference between the leader and the mind of Christ, then you could feel that you were doing exactly what God would have you to do.

There were periods under John when there were weekly marriage checkouts, since an influx of young people had flooded the churches. Then there were other periods where very few marriages took place. Recently there seems to have been an unspoken directive to let as many of the young kids get married as possible lest they go outside the church to try finding a mate. Most of the young people would not think to leave anyway because 90% of their friends are the kids they've grown up with -- better to stay on good terms and be surrounded by your friends than step away to an uncertain world.

Either way, the shepherds still exercise a lot of control over the most personal decisions people can make -- where to live, who to spend your life with, minor things like that. The fact that many of the leaders have personal lives devoid of a healthy personal example does not matter as much as the submission of the sheep to their designated authorities.

They may argue that to be a Christian you must submit every area of your life to Christ and that as Christ's representatives you are yielding to Jesus Christ when you obey their directives -- but that requires a lot of hubris, perhaps tainted with ambition, or other mixed motivations. By cutting people off from their personal relationship with the Lord and mocking their seeking of God as looking to "God in the sky" or "God in your brain" -- they installed themselves as the representatives of Christ-in-the-flesh to whom people had to submit.

To then displease that Christ, or to have her get pissed off at you, or lash out at you, where were you supposed to turn? To God? That's only your brain, trying to dodge the cross. To other members of the congregation? They were trained to shut down and pretend you were invisible if you were under discipline. It's no wonder that people felt like they were being slowly strangled or denied spiritual air in which to breathe.

These types of control are unhealthy, especially when exercised by people whose own personal lives may be in disarray.

ThecalledmeJonah wrote:

I was talking to Craig about a band that I was going to start playing with, and he said "Don't tell me you're gonna go out and become a fucking musician. That's not who you are." This really fucked with me. He obviously didn't want me spending time outside of Shiloh.

I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with Pastor Craig's take, but I can sure feel his love for you...and THAT is what is most important.
;)

Posted by: changedagain
Date: February 15, 2018 12:16AM

It's funny how the milking of the members through slave/servant labor wasn't even what offended me as much as the demeaning messages Gary would deliver to the fellowship. No matter how much people slaved, much to his personal benefit, it apparently was still not pleasing the heavenly father--according to "the word." Anyway, I finally woke up to this obvious abuse and separated myself from TLWF ('98). There hasn't been a day since when I've felt even a tinge of regret. And trust me, I really don't think it's because I am now possessed by some evil spirit from the Old Testament :)
Much appreciation to everyone who has come forward to express what they have experienced in this cult, and have been willing to face the possible repercussions. I would send each and every one of you a belated Valentine's Day card, but frankly that would be weird, and I haven't bothered to find out the identity of each person and where they happen to live. I suppose this is an indication that I would make a very inept cult leader.
Oh well.

Saw Enough wrote:

"They may argue that to be a Christian you must submit every area of your life to Christ and that as Christ's representatives you are yielding to Jesus Christ when you obey their directives -- but that requires a lot of hubris, perhaps tainted with ambition, or other mixed motivations. By cutting people off from their personal relationship with the Lord and mocking their seeking of God as looking to "God in the sky" or "God in your brain" -- they installed themselves as the representatives of Christ-in-the-flesh to whom people had to submit."

I remember the "God in the Sky" taunts. Hey, the God in My Brain was far preferable to the Christ in the Flesh any day. These were blatant control measures that harmed many, many people. The Christs in the Flesh certainly did not have the welfare of the people of TLWF in mind. Only their own pampered lifestyle and prosperity. I don't seem to recall stories about Jesus saying that he demanded forced labor or that he was dripping with gold provided by his disciples.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2022 05:21AM by Reepicheep.

Responding to an overture of 'reconciliation.' A few posts from late August 31, 2019:

Posted by: changedagain
Date: August 29, 2019 12:48PM

I woke up wrote:
There are now pastors wives posting on Shalom’s FB post. On one hand I believe they think they mean well and they believe what they say... on the other hand, I feel they did not post without first getting permission from the higher-ups/abusers and/or were instructed to post. Their responses feel programmed and this saddens me.

For those of us who experienced years upon years of TLWF, it's nearly impossible to believe that anything originating from leadership (or former leadership) not be calculated to produce a certain response in order to facilitate an agenda they have in mind. Sad, but true. There are certain people in your life you trust instinctively, usually based on years of positive encounters, and others others you don't. You should not feel guilty for acknowledging this and factoring it in to your decisioning making. Knowing who you can trust, and who you can't, is a key to survival and having enough freedom to enjoy life.

Posted by: JesusJesusJesus
Date: August 30, 2019 09:21AM

I DO feel awkward in this community. I DO get uncomfortable when I run into people who used to be like family to me. That was true when we left Shiloh several years ago, and is even more so now (in part because I have no sense of who's still "in" and who's "out.")

To be honest, if something could be done to overcome that feeling of discomfort, that would be GREAT! I am leery, though, when I read the part that says, "It would follow Scripture to have the same love and respect for each other as we do with our other neighbors and churches in the community."

Perhaps things have changed in the past ten years or so and this is no longer true, but I certainly heard it insinuated and openly preached from the pulpit over and over again that Shiloh was better/smarter/more right than the other "dead" and "religious" churches in the area. So, if people are looking now to only have "the same love and respect for each other" as they do (or, at least did) for their "other neighbors and churches in the community" - count me out!! I don't want to be humored, looked-down-upon, and smirked at behind closed doors, and that's very much what happened to other Christians (especially Protestant Christians) when I was part of the Body.

I genuinely doubt the inclusion of this wording is duplicitous on their part, though. I would guess that they are still functioning in the same mindset of being the "remnant," and perhaps aren't even aware of the implicit judgment they've had (still have?) of other churches. Maybe that's an area that this counselor could point out and work on, and which would help the healing and reconciliation process.

Just my two cents' worth.

Posted by: kBOY
Date: August 30, 2019 03:40PM

J J J:

The desire for reconciliation is laudable, but the rub lies in the fact that TLW perpetrated/perpetuated just the opposite, and has not really come to grips with that fact that openly admitting it did so is obviously absent.

Physician--heal thyself first, and then do no harm.

Posted by: I_woke_up
Date: August 30, 2019 10:59PM

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if I will receive an unsigned Happy
> Birthday email from Shiloh this year...maybe sent
> in a cluster? Not that it will have an impact,
> one way or another :)

This had me laughing out loud!

My spouse also received the email and said that they should have replied with one word “unsubscribe.” Funny thing though, we both unsubscribed from Shiloh emails years ago. Huh?! SMH. I don’t know why it surprises me that they don’t respect boundaries.

At least Shiloh didn’t sign off the email with “In Christ’s Blood.

Posted by: puddington
Date: August 31, 2019 02:37AM

In Christ’s Blood

A great name for a Christian heavy metal band.

Posted by: Reepicheep
Date: August 31, 2019 03:18AM

Re: the "In Christ's Blood" sign-off used in GH's apology letter...

Even when TLWF leaders attempt to mimick mainstream Christian leaders, they sound awkward and out of their element at best. It reminds me of a certain president quoting "Two Corinthians". GH should stick with what is familiar to him, like lording it over what is left of his disappearing flock.

Posted by: changedagain
Date: August 31, 2019 07:04AM

I_woke_up wrote:
Go ahead and share. I agree with your last paragraph. Not sure why C&P are still around and have their hand on everything if they “stepped down” unless they are still getting paid and/or want more money?! Does Haworth Family Ministries own any part of Shiloh or Marilyn Farms?

You usually can't go wrong assuming there is a monetary motive to whatever 'former' TLWF leaders decide to do. it doesn't mean you can't be 'cordial' if you cross paths, however :) I suppose if there was a specific acknowledgement among former leaders of how their actions have harmed congregants through the years, and helped ruin many innocent lives, than yes...'reconciliation' could be on the table. But I haven't seen that...and I don't think anyone else has either. This situation is not symmetrical (both 'sides' are equally to blame for the present state of things). Presenting things in that manner is dishonest as a starting point for any possible 'reconciliation.'

Posted by: Road to Damascus
Date: August 31, 2019 09:26AM

JJJ,
I understand the discomfort. I too have that, and not feeing comfortable asking where people stand. When it is family members and long time friends that are spouting how John's word is so true, I clam up, red flag alert. It is wrong to label this anything but wrong. God's Word is God's. Anything else is usurping God in peoples lives. Come worship JRS, etc is what occurred and is still occurring for some. I have been approached by some that claim that only the ones that are left are truly hurting because they are still on the front lines, and that any who have left are deceived. Give me a break. Maybe that is why at this time I go to a church occasionally. I can worship God on my own and let Him heal my hurts from this group. I hope one day to be able to put my feet down in a church community, but right now I am gun shy and suspicious of every church. There is one that I enjoy once in awhile. I miss those I have known for a long time, but I wonder if I ever was truly comfortable since I was always treated as a second class member except by a few. What is real? Until I have answers to that and the questions Who am I, and how did I get sucked up into this, and Where do I go from here I guess I am in limbo. I was always told I had the gift of Faith, well right how the only thing I am holding on to is that since God is love, I can rest in the fact that each of us is loved. No faith remains.

What inspirational phrase would you never use in an attempt to cheer someone up? No need to explain why.

I would have to go with 'It's a New Day.'
(especially if they happened to be armed)

Great summary, Changed. Many voices have told the same story. Personally, I can only think of one former APCO member who has ever apologized for their role in this horror show. The same person has participated in Survivor groups. I won't name that individual here, but I could name a whole lot of people that didn't help. Gary Hargrave leads that pack, of course. As I see it, there are very few former apostolic company leaders, if any, still working as TLWF/Walk leaders...or whatever they're calling themselves these days. There are many more that simply walked away and left the people who had been obliged to treat them as Christ in the flesh.

True, Reep.

Reep wrote:
As I see it, there are very few former apostolic company leaders, if any, still working as TLWF/Walk leaders...or whatever they're calling themselves these days.

One of them now works at a Trader Joe's somewhere. I've heard that another works at a Cinnabon in Omaha, but that info appears bogus.