Yes

A post by 'pressingonbyHisgrace' from January of 2019...which references the accusatory, condemning phrase "killing John."

Posted by: pressingonbyHisgrace
Date: January 03, 2019 01:48PM

Do you remember the phrase "You're killing John"? This was said to people who were not toe-ing the line correctly, in the late 70's and early 80's. The responsibility of God not moving John into resurrection life was laid upon the congregation. We were told (mostly by Marilyn Hargrave) that we weren't praying hard enough or long enough. We needed to fast more. We weren't doing all-night prayer meetings enough. Etc. etc. And when John finally died....guess who's fault it was for him passing away? You guessed it. Many of us carried a sense of guilt for John's death for many years afterwards. It didn't help with Marilyn saying stuff like "I don't need you. I have to move fast to get John back.". We were again blamed, this time for not bringing John back. Guilt - all the way around.""

Paleface wrote:
I'm certain I repressed that memory (until now) due to the sheer basis of its cruelty and ludicrousness, but it is what caused me to finally leave. I remember M kept telling us to 'get rid of our self-condemnation' and, not surprisingly it was the first thing that left when I left!

That witch would come to Anaheim and beat the sheep, when she wasn't blatantly flirting from the podium with Gary and others.

And at South Gate at a long service where we were all expected to stand the entire length of a real 'rager', (remember those drawn-out all-niters)? I was 6 months pregnant at the time, so from time to time I would lean on a seat armrest, until Gary looked over at me and shot a scornful glance with an "I've lost patience with you" sigh over at me. Some sick, sick puppies there, including those of us who swallowed this stuff, under the guise of 'submission'.

I'm glad I left when I did, I'm thankful to have found this site, but moreover so thankful for a loving Savior who never rejected me and caused me to live once again.

The ultimate cop out and spin.

After we easily dismissed so many other 'false prophecies', the resurrection life issue was probably second only to no 'kingdom' appearing on the scene in 1979.

It ultimately set the tone of guilt-projection that infected the fellowship right up until its ignominious end.

Those drowning in guilt are quick to project it, and we were the available targets.

kBOY wrote:
After we easily dismissed so many other 'false prophecies', the resurrection life issue was probably second only to no 'kingdom' appearing on the scene in 1979.

A few posts in this forum (there are many) that mention the non-arrival of the Kingdom in 1979, and the refusal of leaders to acknowledge any errors in their prophesies:

Posted by: paleface
Date: March 24, 2011 11:28PM

Gary has recently admitted over the pulpit "Some mistakes have been made in the past. We are not perfect.". But that's about the extent of it. You don't get any details about what he is referring to and there is no indication of repentance of corrections to the sources of the mistakes.....unless blame was placed on a person and that person was removed from leadership. And, I guess it is easy to fault JRS and claim "His big error was not opening up to Marilyn all the way". The hint is that John missed the mark here. Was that the "big mistake"? I don't think so.

But what I find disturbing is apparently no discussion about words that were brought that appear to have been flawed. No discussion about "Satan being brought down by John"....or... "The Kingdom is coming in 1979". No revision of unfulfilled prophecy. It's as if these words from JRS and G&M stand true and are 100% perfect. Nothing is revised or edited as it stands up in the face of time and what has transpired. And, like you said, if you question this, you are regarding in the fellowship as someone with a "critical spirit" and thus being a vessel of witchcraft.

I'm sorry, but the words and theology are just as imperfect as the vessels that speak them.

Posted by: larry bobo
Date: June 13, 2015 08:04PM

I wrote a letter to Apco questioning not only John’s death bringing down Satan but also the failed prophesies of the 1980’s that we did all the survival preparation for, the kingdom dawning in 1979 from John’s vision into the future as well as the interpretations of the Great Pyramid, Jesus’ provision on the cross needing a Door Opener Apostle before it could actually work, “words from God” directing minute details of people lives yet the seeming lack of direction on the major issues facing the Body, the mine in Nevada and camp in Brazil that cost many their life savings – etc. etc.. The response I received was that I was not allowed to speak in services for more than a year. I still question every one of those areas to this day – I just learned to keep my mouth shut while I was still in TLWF.

Posted by: 40yearsin2016
Date: January 08, 2017 04:30AM

In 1979-80, JRS had our senior ministry staff deliver the word that many of "the best" of our local folks should move to Shiloh. Local senior ministry hand picked individuals that would relocate. Those who were young, unmarried or only recently married were candidates.

That was the power of the cult: quit your job, drop out of school, move to Iowa to pick corn.

For all who went it proved to be the worst choice of their lives. Those who were able to get out only lost 2 - 5 years in what should have been the most productive years of their lives.

Others (some were my very best friends) are in the walk still... they've given up their whole of their lives.

They were all wonderful, amazing talented young people with so much potential.

Most are now broke. Many are divorced and estranged from their families. All of them are now old and their lives are almost over.

That "word of wisdom" so long ago cost them everything...

As for the woo-woo communicating; Hey John! hey Marilyn! and oh yeah, HEY GOD! Thanks for NOT picking me!

PS: To anyone reading this who's still in TLWF.

Everyone who posts here, to varying degrees, really do understand where you're coming from.

But consider this: how much have you already given up - what is Gary & Co. going to require of you in the future? Will you also be old, broke and alone? Don't look for a confirmation or a revelation. Let your rational brain have a go at it for a while. Consider what others have suggested; take a break make some space between you and TLWF for a time.

PSS: I pray God let's you off the hook and gives you some of the mercy he spared me...

C H A N G E D


What a sad legacy--it breaks my heart to even read it.

The degree of destruction inflicted on all levels is truly disheartening, given that it was done in the 'name of the Lord'.

Some have recovered, some are still recovering, and some may never recover--at least not in this life.

The G-man is the only one left to hold accountable, but he will most likely NEVER review this 'list of damages', and simply saunter off into the sunset to start on a new list.

Caveat emptor.

Welcome to reality reveal. I don’t know if I know you or not but i know we have endured similar abuse at the hands of TLW and my heart goes out to you.
Don’t stop improving. Every day seems to bring a little more clarity and I have been out for over 30 years now. Best to you

Nice to hear from you Tmason. I sent you a PM.

Yes, nice to hear from you Tmason.

kBOY wrote:
The G-man is the only one left to hold accountable, but he will most likely NEVER review this 'list of damages', and simply saunter off into the sunset to start on a new list.

Rather than be accountable, he simply moves onto a "higher ministry."

A post from September of 2018 by 'Saw Enough' regarding John's "vision of the Kingdom."

Posted by: Saw enough
Date: September 28, 2018 01:21PM

In December 1972 Brother Stevens disappeared for an entire day and a few days later he went to the Valley Church and claimed that he'd been caught up in the spirit and taken 7 years into the future where he saw the Kingdom. As he explained his vision and his sense of losing all track of time that day, some of the young prophets speculated about black holes and time warps in the spirit where time did not matter. That vision of the Kingdom became the basis for a lot of the preaching for the next 7 years.

Many people and churches dedicated their lives and their survival planning and their life decisions around that 7-year date and the revelation that John was the apostle to the Kingdom. Twenty years later a woman from the Valley church got word to Gary and Marilyn that she had been with John on that December 12th in 1972. A lot of people around the Living Word building gossiped about the story, but nobody said or perhaps knows if John actually had his vision that day or if he was just with someone not his wife for the day. Aimee McPherson once disappeared mysteriously and later claimed that she'd been kidnapped and taken to Mexico or somewhere -- it's not that uncommon for ministers to try to cover their tracks.

It's like a Mormon hearing that Joseph Smith hadn't really found magic tablets and translated a new version of the Bible for latter day saints. How do you say, okay maybe that didn't happen but the rest of our church is still the true church of the end time. Joseph Smith's vision was not confirmed by others and John's claims were not really confirmed by others -- he was the leader and knowing that he had a special insight into the Kingdom was a draw.

Nothing about this disclosure was mentioned to the churches -- other than a few veiled words about how John's real problem was disobedience -- and not giving himself enough to Marilyn. (Another warning for people to shape up and get with the program.) Gary warned cryptically that things might be coming down that would shake people's loyalty but it would only be proof that they never had a revelation.

One of Rick's escapades also surfaced sometime in the 90s but he was not the only thing that was wrong in the fellowship. Going back to the 70s there were dozens of accounts of financial and sexual abuse by the pastors of many of the large churches, along with mistreatment of the people. After Gary & Marilyn took over, there was still large scale psychological abuse and reckless shepherding that left a lot of casualties. Marilyn had anger issues and would often lash out violently at those she felt were violating her spirit or offending her. This was interpreted as how the Lord felt about those people, especially since she was being promoted as the Lord in the earth and there was no "God in the sky" or "God in your brain" that you could trust. Submission to her as Christ in the flesh was the order of the day.

For every young person who came forth as a talented and accomplished adult, there were many more who were cast aside or labeled or discarded. Amazingly, Gary Hargrave has continued to promote John's vision as the plumbline for the fellowship even after he knew the background. (He might know something that no one else knows.)

Maybe the fellowship is in its death throes and is winding down due to dwindling membership, an aging congregation and the urgent need for finances to support the many facilities on an annual basis. It is also harder to isolate people from the world around them since they have so much access to what's going on outside the church walls. The messages follow the same pattern of Feasts and winter months and Purim to celebrate Marilyn and Passovers to leave Egypt and summer camps to be the prophets who rule the nations, along with reaching out to other churches and groups. But while the messages may be getting more orthodox in their delivery, their claims about how they are changing the whole earth are -- who knows?

For sure there is a crisis of confidence and trust -- similar to the Catholic church where the highest leaders are saying "We had no idea of the extent of the corruption in our midst." But the corruption was institutionalized through the years -- which is why it's kept repeating itself.