O N I O N

"Yes, some people lie. Yes, some people exaggerate and generate stories out of one emotional misunderstanding. But those people are a very tiny minority among the numbers speaking out."

This is an EXTREMELY important point when dealing with allegations of this nature. The emotional impact of these abuses is far more extensive than just having your identity stolen online. These are up close and personal.

To attempt to discount EVERYONE where there may have been a few embellishments here or there is to simply not want any LIGHT shined into the darkness.

Since only LIGHT is ETERNAL, darkness will eventually run out of time.

Onion wrote:
Yes, some people lie. Yes, some people exaggerate and generate stories out of one emotional misunderstanding. But those people are a very tiny minority among the numbers speaking out.

kBOY wrote:
This is an EXTREMELY important point when dealing with allegations of this nature. The emotional impact of these abuses is far more extensive than just having your identity stolen online. These are up close and personal.

To attempt to discount EVERYONE where there may have been a few embellishments here or there is to simply not want any LIGHT shined into the darkness.

True

kBOY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> L I A M
>
> "I first began to find solace in my resolve to
> accept myself without needing the affirmation of
> the apostolic fathering ministries."

> This is the 'giant leap' that everyone faces when
> they leave a culture of perpetual dependency and
> suddenly find themselves in the throes of being
> independent.

This is something I posted on a FB group discussing TLWF earlier this month:

The two most pernicious themes (I think) that kept us in bondage were:
1. No matter what you do, or how dedicated you think you are, it always falls short of what God is requiring. God represented, of course, in leadership (John, G & M, etc),
2. Any criticism of leadership is never acceptable. If you are submissive, have a 'right spirit', God will work things out for good.
Of course, as we know now, a few at the top of the authority chain were living a privileged life at the expense of the dedicated rank-and-file. They were only accountable to 'God in the Sky'..,.or some docile servant who happened to be their 'DR' and trained to repeat back to them what they wanted to hear.
The psychological manipulation was/is extraordinary. Sociopaths have the 'advantage' of possessing no conscience.

C H A N G E D

"The psychological manipulation was/is extraordinary. Sociopaths have the 'advantage' of possessing no conscience."

It is a bit strange to think that that is an accurate psychological description of the 'vessels' that claimed to 'speak for God', being 'lamps' and all.

The cognitive dissonance in their own minds required that they hide one part from the other in order to maintain to 'appear' to live in one world while debauching themselves in another.

Onion, I am so glad you shared about the Nazi techniques. it is right on target. About 8 years ago my daughter wrote a college paper on how the nazis used children in propaganda. Her paper really opened my eyes then lead me to continue to learn more as the same applies to how we were programmed step by step. I really had no idea how easy it was to be manipulated.

Here the link to a disturbing video Caring Corrupted. [youtu.be]
As an RN I have to seriously wonder if I could have done what these nurses did?
I believe that it is a relevant example of how good people went along with what JRS wanted us to do.

Here the link to a book I want to read. [books.google.com]

As we have painfully come to realize, cult dynamics can be observed in not only religious, political or business institutions, but in any organization that sets itself apart from the multitudes, with size being no issue.

It is always the severity of the paradigm and how it is enforced that determines the damage to both the adherents and their extended relationships.

The matrix of this world operates on an 'us vs them' mentality, with LOVE being the only real POWER that can breach the divide.

Folks this is gonna be a long one . . . .

Hi Onion aka Mary Wyatt,

To be on fair ground, I am outing myself in this forum. This is Jennifer Payne.

Background to my questions:
(1) Above you speak of Nazis. Part of what Nazis did was a disinformation campaign the fermented misunderstandings about people and their experiences.
(2) You’ve previously disclosed that you are, or have been in the very recent past, roommates with John Miller.
(3) For folks here who did not read, in close to real time, all of the comments to a certain Facebook post put up in October 2018, John Miller stated he was a “three-time go to guy to help cleanup [Rick Holbrook] scandals.”
(4) John subsequently deleted his comment; but what happens on social media stays on social media and was seen by many people.
(5) Also on Facebook you have called Survivors who took the public action of filing lawsuits “liars.” Today you also made a comment in a public Facebook group called Further Discussion that amounts to witness tampering (see question 1 below).
(6) On this forum, I believe you questioned why you aren’t welcomed with open loving arms in Further Discussion. Your calling Survivors liars is why.
(7) You were previously a member of the California State Bar. Your current Bar status (as of 1/16/2020 approximately 7:00pm Pacific) shows you as disbarred for failure to appear at a bar proceeding.
(8) You’ve previously claimed that you let the disbarment happen so you could expose tlwf lies and abuses. While that would be a noble endeavor were it to occur, a reasonable person likely would have voluntarily surrendered his or her license pending the bar’s action to avoid a public record of disbarment. Surrender of your license would have equally “freed” you.
(9) I am currently listed with the California State Bar as inactive, by choice, since I haven’t practiced law in California since 2003 (I went inactive in California in 2008). I am currently actively licensed in another state; and inactive in Arizona since I haven’t practiced law in Arizona since 2010. For those who are not familiar with bar statuses, this means I could move back to active status in California upon request and payment of additional fees.
(10) I have not read all 1065 pages in this forum. If some of these questions were asked and answered before, I would still invite you to answer them again.
(11) A trusted person stated you outed yourself in this forum already. I know you also did in chats started through the Facebook Group Survivor Stories. For that reason, I listed your name above.

Here are my questions:
(1) As a previously licensed attorney, why do you find it appropriate to tamper with witnesses? You have, on multiple occasions, posted on Facebook calling Survivors liars. Today you commented about someone’s case not being taken and asked if it was because they had a criminal record. You did not make clear that the criminal record was a DUI. You did not provide an analysis or reference how the rules of evidence work. Your comment today did not tag the person to whom it was directed. Were you trying to bury your comment? Were I to ask questions in a deposition based upon your comment from today, they would drive toward the appearance of intent to tamper with witnesses.

(2) Do you have degrees in either psychology or psychiatry? If not, that might explain why you engage in behavior that is yet another form of abuse against Survivors. You perpetuate the “blame the victim” mentality with the attempts to attack people speaking out. Let them speak without trying to cloud things with your OPINION. It is NOT your place to pass judgment on any Survivors’ story. You have not been connected at the hip 24 hours a day, every single day, every singl year to every single predator, so I’m curious what “facts” you have to even make these claims. You, as a previously licensed attorney, surely understand that passing judgment is either the judge’s or the jury’s job, depending on the type of trial. Surely, you do not intend to set yourself up as judge and jury based solely on opinions.

(3) Were your posts on this forum about insurance meant to also discourage people from seeking to assert their legal claims against tlwf? If not, what was the purpose? I am a former insurance coverage litigator and can say your reference to insurance coverage on page 1056 in this forum is generally correct, but missing a whole slew of additional information. You left out the part that insurance coverage has limits, or a maximum that the insurance carrier might pay. If enough claims are brought, coverage runs out and the perpetrators do face personal liability. You left out the part that intentional acts might actually not be covered by insurance. If tlwf intentionally did not meet mandatory reporting requirements, for example, and that failure resulted in harm, coverage could be voided if that harm is the subject of a lawsuit. You left out the part that insurance companies can provide defense counsel under a reservation of rights, meaning that they’ll provide a lawyer but depending on the basis of liability, the insurance company might not make a single liability payment, leaving the perpetrators personally liable. You also left out the fact that even if few claims are brought and the insurance pays out, for someone that has been harmed, sometimes that payment will bring partial justice and the ability to help in recovery from the harm.

(4) If you were driven to be disbarred to expose tlwf and their wrong doings and coverups, does that mean you acted as an attorney for a client while that client actively used your advice to further their efforts to commit crimes? While this post will be long enough as it is, off the top of my head there have been credible reports that tlwf consistently failed to comply with California Mandatory Reporting laws.

(5) If you weren’t actively assisting a client in furtherance of committing a crime (i.e. failure to report and likely other crimes), what of your actions were privileged so that you had to be disbarred to free yourself from privilege obligations? I have yet to see you disclose something that would actually be considered privileged (but I remind you that I have not read every single page of this forum).

(6) Do you remain loyal to anyone, and that means any single person, who had any position of authority in the tlwf churches and/or APCO? For example, are you still roommates with John Miller? Do you have any close ties with Bruce Larson?

(7) If you remain loyal to tlwf folks, have you consider using that loyalty to encourage them to step up, own up to their past transgressions, and find a relationship with God that is authentically based on a true repentance? (Again, in the interests of transparency, I am a spiritual agnostic, but I understand that many still seek to walk with God).

(8) If you remain loyal to tlwf folks, particularly John Miller, did you caution John from associating with another known cult called The Move controlled, I believe, by Bill Grier? Or did you think it acceptable for your friends to join another cult? (Side questions for everyone here – is there another subforum for The Move? If not, should one be started?)

(9) What, exactly, is your motivation in this forum? No offense to the people posting here; as I said I have not read everything here. But there are times that I read the fawning over Onion’s comments. Fawning over one who seems to have structured herself to have all the insider information (that isn’t actually shared in great detail publicly) is a hero worship we saw in tlwf.

I’m a verbose, contemplative person. I may have other questions that occur to me in the next few days. If so, I’ll post here.
And because I’ve seen flame wars happen in forums similar to this, to save folks time in googling me I’ll declare that the “sins” of my past include having to file bankruptcy after a divorce a decade ago; and as I’ve related in posts on Facebook I am a birth mother by choice (but also a pro-choice advocate). Oh and I am very much anti-Trump, which you can discover if someone checks my Twitter feed.

Food For Thought – discuss!

Firewalker (Jenn) All great questions, I eagerly await answers having wondered some of these myself.

Quote

Posted by: FireWalker
Date: January 16, 2020 09:17PM

(3) Were your posts on this forum about insurance meant to also discourage people from seeking to assert their legal claims against tlwf? If not, what was the purpose? I am a former insurance coverage litigator and can say your reference to insurance coverage on page 1056 in this forum is generally correct, but missing a whole slew of additional information. You left out the part that insurance coverage has limits, or a maximum that the insurance carrier might pay. If enough claims are brought, coverage runs out and the perpetrators do face personal liability. You left out the part that intentional acts might actually not be covered by insurance. If tlwf intentionally did not meet mandatory reporting requirements, for example, and that failure resulted in harm, coverage could be voided if that harm is the subject of a lawsuit. You left out the part that insurance companies can provide defense counsel under a reservation of rights, meaning that they’ll provide a lawyer but depending on the basis of liability, the insurance company might not make a single liability payment, leaving the perpetrators personally liable. You also left out the fact that even if few claims are brought and the insurance pays out, for someone that has been harmed, sometimes that payment will bring partial justice and the ability to help in recovery from the harm.

FireWalker, thank you for your detailed clarifications on insurance money possibly paying for lawsuits against TLWF. I found Onion's previous remarks on the subject disheartening and wondered if people considering coming forward would be discouraged from doing so.

I have also stated before that people should not allude to having insider information when they do not. Giving opinions about an ongoing case on a public forum is only helping the defendants, namely TLWF et. al. It is confusing to the casual reader of this forum. Onion is not part of the legal team representing the plaintiffs in the lawsuits against TLWF. In fact, she may have reason to work against them. It pains me to say this, but I can't stand by while someone makes comments about victims lying and exaggerating. Those statements do not come from a place of support for victims, and as such they are highly inappropriate, in my opinion.

And now the onion will be off screaming foul to the moderator in 3 2 1. To the moderator; we can back up these complaints with screenshots from the Further discussion group on Facebook, the meddling and demeaning is very clear in her own words.