deborahs Wrote:
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> I appreciate your words. Is there a closed
> facebook group anywhere going on? would love to
> see if I know any of y'all! :-) I was in both
> Illinois and Iowa.

Welcome deborahs
I was in Ia, Ill, and CA

For me, I left, but, still had the words "gullible" use me' "vulnerable" written eon my forehead for other narcissistic sociopaths who were looking for their next victims.

I have been working on boundaries and my patterns of behavior that need to be re-wired. I can't change history nor can I change to ____ who took advantage of so many good people. (
fill in the blank. I could not think of one stinkin word that said it all.

Oh, yes, I want to see the criminals go to prison to be some bad mad's girl-friend and get what they deserve to make the streets safer. I think people and their families deserve to have the wealth redistributed to the people.

My obsession this week is: I am concerned about any "forgive and forget " advice that would cause victim witnesses to walk away. Abuse like this has to stop in every religious organization. More good people will continue to be hurt unless more people speak up and are supported by good people. It is no just clw - the Catholics have had these kinds abuses for centuries and set a very bad example that pedophiles and more have learned how to escape the law and keep victims quiet.

Not so long ago, a very good friend said to me, "Sacrifice is one thing. Self abuse is another." That hit hard. I was taught to do what? "Give till it hurts or you drop dead- but keep on giving." Think about it- take it or leave it., but I really don't think God ever intended that 'forgiveness" meant for his loving people to be abused over and over and be forced to keep secrets.

Forgiveness ... it is so very very complicated ... What I know for sure is we can't forgive any quicker than we are ready to do so. And if some choose not to do so - I respect that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2019 02:57AM by deborahs.

Reepicheep Wrote:
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>

Quote
changedagain
> Yes, Hargrave and company always manage to dump
> guilt on the victims--or at least try to. Placing
> a requirement of forgiving your enemies
> (highlighting certain verses in Matt. 18) is just
> the latest manipulative tactic. The burden, of
> course, is once again placed on the wounded, while
> the transgressors refuse to specifically
> acknowledge their wrongdoing, and the havoc it has
> wreaked in people's lives. It's not working this
> time around. Fortunately, there is an immune
> system developing, with those further down the
> road in recovery helping the freshly wounded.
> Guilt-trips are being effectively resisted. People
> are on the path toward healing. Let it continue.
>
> p.s. A friend of mine pointed out that the same
> chapter that mentions forgiveness also contains
> this ominous verse:
> Matthew 18:6:
> “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those
> who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better
> for them to have a large millstone hung around
> their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the
> sea."
> (so much for getting away with exploiting minors)
>

>
> Changed, this is so important to point out the
> manipulative aspects of being told time and again
> that the burden for forgiveness is upon those who
> have been abused. And I'm so glad that your friend
> brought up Matthew 18:6 about harming little ones.
> Harming little ones, especially knowingly or
> repeatedly, is the most unforgivable sin in my
> mind.
>
> If any of those perpetrators want to come before
> victims and their loved ones and confess their
> sins and beg forgiveness, and also be willing to
> pay the cost that justice demands, then perhaps. I
> would leave that up to the supreme judge of all.
>
> "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
> to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all
> unrighteousness." I John 1:9 KJV
>
> Forgiveness involves the offender repenting,
> confessing their sin and asking for
> forgiveness. And not in a closed room under some
> bizarre context of pastor penitent privilege. I
> have not heard anything remotely resembling
> confession and repentence from leaders, former or
> present, of TLWF. I have not seen anyone turn
> themselves in to authorities and admit sexually
> abusing minors under their care. I have not heard
> anyone taking responsibility for knowingly
> allowing the abuse, and turning a blind eye to the
> little ones under their care. Where is the
> responsibility, then? It's not upon the little one
> who was victimized to carry the millstone off of
> their abuser's neck.

Well, stated, Reep.

May I add that historically leadership in this cult were all to quick to accuse people of having Jez spirits or what ever evil biblical name to shame and kick out anyone who could expose them. That was no special communication with God.

The leadership had the skills and experience to root out "trouble makers". But, they could not spot sexual addicts under their noses? " Monkey see- Monkey do" G knew. M knew - of course she did- she was the biggest Ho in the rose garden from year one. ( I only had a glimpse)

Wimpy little apology is not repentance nor is it rehabilitation for sexual addiction of so many leaders who helped themselves to those vulnerable children/sheep who should have protected by the leaders. Sick. There is no way a religious leader can claim to speak words of the lord and the lord forgets to reveal heinous abuse. Does it really make sense that god gives wisdom to tell people how to run there lives but, God leaves how how to protect the flock?

For my self, I have to step out of a 'crazy" situation then say some of those odd things out loud before I can separate out the twisted lies. Journals helped me if I could keep them safely private.

For our family and friends who are still in: we love you. You will know when the time is right to ask the right questions. We are here for you.

There is a jarring documentary, "Keepers," about a subculture in a Catholic setting that resulted in the murder of a young nun who had the gall to speak up to the priest who headed the school. The documentary points out large numbers of abuses to minors and a careful dissection of the methods used in a heinous abuse of power by the priest and the murder that resulted from the nun taking a stand.

The "keepers" are a group of women that refused to give up until justice was served and the truth completely exposed. It took them MANY years of persistence.

As to forgiveness, depending on each individual's stage of recovery, I believe the best route is for people to consult their therapists or other providers with education in the area of abuse recovery and forgiveness before responding in a willy nilly fashion to a surface interpretation or another's opinion on how forgiveness works within the victim.

Forgiveness is a deeply complicated issue and should not be faced by abuse victims alone or after a cursory evaluation of the psychology of forgiveness. And definitely should not be acted upon based on the opinion of others. We walked through life that way far too long and the conditioning to continue to "obey" (or submit to) srongly worded admonishments from outside ourselves is much more important to deal with during the healing process in order to avoid additional missteps in our lives.

Each of us, all of us, any of us, must be allowed to reach our own individual recovery in a very personal way. No two people should be categorized and treated the same; especially not when the abuse was so long-standing (20 to 40+ years for many). Full recovery requires such a depth of uncovering within each of us and may occur over a long period of time of peeling layers and finding deeper wounds.

Onion Wrote:


> Each of us, all of us, any of us, must be allowed
> to reach our own individual recovery in a very
> personal way. No two people should be categorized
> and treated the same; especially not when the
> abuse was so long-standing (20 to 40+ years for
> many). Full recovery requires such a depth of
> uncovering within each of us and may occur over a
> long period of time of peeling layers and finding
> deeper wounds.

Yes

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Onion Wrote:
>
>
> > Each of us, all of us, any of us, must be
> allowed
> > to reach our own individual recovery in a very
> > personal way. No two people should be
> categorized
> > and treated the same; especially not when the
> > abuse was so long-standing (20 to 40+ years for
> > many). Full recovery requires such a depth of
> > uncovering within each of us and may occur over
> a
> > long period of time of peeling layers and
> finding
> > deeper wounds.
>
> Yes

I 2nd that. Thank you Onion.

The Lord told me to tell you - NOT!
Verily, verily and the Lord gaveth me a Revelation unto thee....NOT!

I have been able to rest and relax with out any responsibility for the last few months, gratefully. I've been slowly recovering from a serious medical crisis - rest has been by job lately which explains why I've been spending so much time reading and posting on these forums. I've had time to process a lot of the things you and I learned in this cult. For me, I started learning stuff- that I know have to unlearn- starting back in the 50's. Knowing how to rest and relax is something I've had a hard time learning to do. Relaxing is something I'm not experienced with. Now, I've had the opportunity to think about all the old habits form the "walk" i still have stuck in my patterns of living.

"The Lord told me to tell you" or I got a "revelation" were phrases we learned to accept. Humans want to fit into the crowd naturally, so we just accepted with out question that a idea came from God, I think. ( What do you think?)

There was no exchange of ideas - only one side commands from one basic source- bombarding our every thought.

We had unrealistic expectations demanded of us to be at every meeting after we had worked all day or even attended school. Endless prayer/ intersession chains. This weeks - required reading. Tapes to eat and sleep with. (Correct me if I'm wrong to assume you were as exhausted as I got.)

Because I have had time to recuperate, bits and pieces of experiences of ancient history and recent events float around in my head when my body is too tired to get out of bed. MY brain actually has time to process like normal human being, now.

- being pushed over the limits in our "walk with god" in constant battle , denied our bodies and brains the time to replenish during rest. Normally, people of all ages are supposed to have restful times, regularly, that offer the brain time to organize and process. (Soldiers need R & R breaks for war zones, too.)

-being pushed past exhaustion with seemingly endless mental input from the leader is one of the destructive issues of mind control. I am learning, after all these decades, that I am not "failing god" when I am resting my body and allowing my brain to process.

- In the wee hours of the morning, my brain is able to fit pieces together for an "ah-ha!"that I suppose people who live balanced lives had already figured out- or not. Somethings, in a dream state, what seems like an epiphany is just a silly dream that really doesn't matter in the scheme of things when I'm awake.

-Did God reveal this message to me? NO, by no means, did I get an important "kingdom proverb or directive". But, it flashed in my head and I have to LOL. In my days in "the walk" that I would have thought "the Lord told me to tell you this" or surely those around me wanted to sound spiritual by saying, the Lord told me" instead of , " I had a thought- what do you think? Does this sound like a good idea or not?" But, we really weren't allowed to have thoughts of our own, now were we?

I wonder if any one else is, has experienced trying to figure out the difference between normal thought process in half dream states where you are exhausted versus "I got a word from the Lord."

[ Some of the "the Lords told me" things people came up with were very unsafe, but other people bought into it. Some one said, "I had to clean house very fast. I prayed and the Lord told me to put all my dirty dishes in a grocery bags and hide them in the oven." - it was discerned that the visitor whom the house had to be cleaned for was responsible for a "bad spirit" the lord revealed to someone- no names mentioned. The dishes in the grocery bags caught on fire when the oven was turned on. OOPS! Demonic harassment was concerned for this house fire- the Lord told someone. I think it was drugs and stupidity, but, what to Jezebels know? ( That was not me-I was always called crazy-one because I did not buy into a spiritual sounding excuses for stupid choices by druggies.)

My point is this: I've been embarrassed to admit that have continued to not recognize as soon I I would have liked to recognize when some one is charmingly manipulative; gas lighting; has me chasing my tail....in order to cover up for something manipulative.

With out airing personal details on the internet, is any one else finding old patterns'habits learned from the leadership in CLW a challenge to break? I think that in the process of healing my peers and I each have some different habits to change in order to continue to move forward.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2019 09:12PM by NancyB.

At the risk of not fully making sense, I want to blurt out something before I forget that has to do with investigations after allegations are made against someone. I was recently reminded of an off beat story to give as an example to try to make my point as the investigation o f the cult were in continues. (I'm not a lawyer. I', mo not perfect either.)

I will assume that everyone is familiar with the HIPPA forms you sign when you get medical care. Basically, information about a person's medical condition can not be released to any one with out your written consent.

Back in the olden days when someone went to the hospital the newspapers printed the list of admissions and their diagnosis. The neighbors would all rush in to cheer up the patient.- that was a violation of privacy.

I am seeing there is a glitch in this HIPPA system. Hold that thought...I'm going to try to combine 2 legal issues into one concern and I'm not a lawyer.

Also by law some one who is accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. There is also a legal term called preponderance of evidence. My understanding is that even if everyone is sure that some jerk is guilty as hell of a crime, but if we have not enough proof the creep gets away with murder. You have to have credible evidence to convict.AS we unload the burden of our individual stories I am pretty sure we are helping to gather evidence as well that GREAT NEWS!


While, these wonderful forums and private Facebook pages have a degree of assumed anonymity and privacy these sites are not as private as we want to believe.

You would be surprised what I or anyone can google and come up with even if you can not read entire post nor comment as a group member.I want to caution everyone to be very careful about specifics like names. I know that I have made mistakes myself in telling too much. ( My typo's will live forever in internet archives even if deleted.)

Posting private details is every bit as much as the old news paper list of people who were admitted for what at the county hospital.

( For a bit of levity: My son swallowed my wedding ring, I thought. So the doctor sent us to get the tot X rayed to be sure. Every body and their bother's uncle called me or knocked the door to find out where the ring was and to give me a piece of unsolicited advice. You might imagine. My son is quite grown up but old neighbors still remember the newspaper report. "18 month old swallows mother's wedding ring." I will neither conform nor deny.

I know of a situation where a person was admitted thru the ER for something undetermined on multiple occasions. Doctors could not figure it out. The illness was due to something that some one wanted to cover up - like trying to poison the patient. The other party comes rushing in appearing to be concerned. Well, the doctor and nurses can't give out any information due to HIPPA. But that does not stop the "guilty" party from dropping little distracting hints to throw the doctors off track.

"Did he have a another seizure?" " I saw a bottle Valium on the kitchen counter the other day. Maybe he over dosed, again. I hope he did not try to commit suicide again. I'd never forgive myself." "I'll pray for his swift healing."

( All bogus)

The medical professionals hear all these little side comments - they absorbed those words- they have not violated HIPPA by giving out information.BUT, There has been no legal filter to protect the patient in reverse. The patient never invited the visitor to the bedside. ( No names and I'm changing details on incidents I've known about to protect the innocent and guilty. I was an RN)

The appearing concerned citizen was not concerned at all. They were poisoning the patient and trying to throw the doctors off the track. ( We get trolls on this site who do try to do the same things.) The patient survived. The guilty person finally got caught. BUT,

Dr over the years weer treating the patient for seizures he never had and depression assuming he had suicidal idealizations. No one actually checked it out medically. Years later the patient is asked about his seizures that he never had and the suicide attempts he never had. OOOPS! he was treated for years for 2 things he never had simply because the false words were still has on his chart stated by the person who was trying to poison him had said 20 years ago.

Being redundant _ The medical records said, he "had a seizure and had over dosed." but non of it was true, yet, doctors after that kept treating the patient for thing he never had without checking out. it was assumed as fact.( The same things happened with misinformation on the world wide web)

My concern is this:I want to nail some bastards that have gotten away with heinous crimes for all these years and or covered up for others.

I am not vindictive- I only want justice to be served and loved ones to be safe. In order for that to be accomplished I hope that none of us have done anything to screw up any investigation. These crimes have to stop.

I could be devastating to have our privacy violated by those who seek to cover their tracts by giving false leads or trying to discredit victim// witnesses. ( Watch for trolls)

I know this happened in my family when we went through it as victim witnesses. Privacy was violated in a very public trial. NO ONE showed any support - but went over board on harassment with the discredited untruths made up by the guilty who was convicted. I understand that it happens a lot in trials of this nature.

I feel very strongly about supporting those who are brave enough to have come forward.
I am sure there are many more who have more information to share that would help make the cases that are being investigated. So, I want to remind everyone to please be careful about protecting the rights of others and not convicting before a fair trial. just a reminder for everyone including myself to do the best we can and stay safe and mover forward at our own pace.

changedagain Wrote:
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> Excellent post, Onion.
>
> "The worst thing that ever happened to them and
> their cult was a bunch of us getting together and
> breaking the deeply embedded code of silence by
> comparing notes. Let's NEVER stop."
>
> Yes


Ditto!