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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: lily rose ()
Date: October 01, 2017 10:25AM

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: NickleandDimed ()
Date: October 01, 2017 12:08PM

lily rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> puddington Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Yes. They say the books are open for
> inspection.
> > But don't you dare ask to look at them. You
> will
> > be labeled "a gourd".
>
>
> That's a sure sign the members are not being fed,
> but shorn. Didn't Miller have to sign a
> non-disclosure agreement. That too is a sure sign
> someone wrong is going on.
>
> The IRS tax rules allow for a parsonage exclusion.
> That means Gary can exclude his mega parsonages
> from taxation.
>
> SHOW US THE MONEY GAReeeeee!


I'll lead the intercession tonight. Let's pull down transparency and accountability. No accountability. No Kingdom.

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: larry bobo ()
Date: October 06, 2017 07:36AM

I just finished viewing all the episodes of Leah Remini’s documentary on Scientology, as others have recommended, and there are many parallels to TLWF. For example, if you leave, Scientology calls you a “Blow” where TLWF calls you a “Blowout”. There is also a very calculated effort to discredit the character and limit personal contact with anyone who leaves. Those that remain within the group are unable to see the gross character flaws of the leadership - prophesying for your wife and daughter to die so you can marry your secretary might be one place to start - while imagining those who no longer want to be spiritually abused are a Nephilim. (Seriously, do you even know what a Nephilim is?) It’s so sad and so pathetic, once the blinders come off! The leadership demands absolute submission from their followers and yet they are submissive to no one except their inflated egos - all at the expense of everyone else. Maybe its all worth it since John brought down Satan by dying of cancer - something even Jesus was unable to do.

I was asked by someone who is still involved with the group why I hated TLWF. It actually was somewhat funny to me – I don’t hate TLWF, or the people involved in it. I do hate that if you leave you have to give up 30-year friendships – you now become off limits. You may get a polite greeting - if they feel they are strong enough to handle your demonic oppression – but that’s not friendship. To speak up about areas that are destructive and need to change is not hate, but love. What’s even more curious to me is how you can view the damaged lives and not care – none of it seems to matter as long as you are serving the leadership. After all, the leaders are Christ in the flesh and those that leave are just lowly blowouts. What difference does it make that Jesus said, “What you do to the least of these, you do to me.”

I was reading an article about President Trump where the author was convinced that he fit the clinical definition of a narcissistic personality disorder as stated in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders used by psychiatrists. I’m not a big Trump fan, but the article did strike some nerves from my time in TLWF. Indicators of narcissism are: grandiosity (Christ in the flesh, the Door Opener Apostle, the Lamp of Israel), a tendency to exaggerate achievements (ruling governments and economies with their prophetic word), a preoccupation with “fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love” (the sons of God ruling and reigning with Him), a belief in one’s specialness which can only be understood by other special people (We are the Body of Christ and the rest of you are Babylon – well, except maybe now the Catholics), and a need for excessive admiration and a sense of entitlement (entering a worship service like a rock star and having the little people take care of your daily needs). The greatest in the Kingdom is the servant of all – just the opposite of all that!

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: puddington ()
Date: October 06, 2017 10:51PM

While TLW is just a little cult, and Scientology is a massive cult. There are striking similarities in how the people are controlled. And the leadership behavior is similar.

L Ron Hubbard = John Robert Stevens

David Miscavige = Gary Hargrave

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: changedagain ()
Date: October 07, 2017 11:29PM

Larry:
"To speak up about areas that are destructive and need to change is not hate, but love. What’s even more curious to me is how you can view the damaged lives and not care – none of it seems to matter as long as you are serving the leadership."

Yes

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: lily rose ()
Date: October 10, 2017 06:37AM

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> I was reading an article about President Trump
> where the author was convinced that he fit the
> clinical definition of a narcissistic personality
> disorder as stated in the Diagnostic and
> Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders used by
> psychiatrists. I’m not a big Trump fan, but the
> article did strike some nerves from my time in
> TLWF. Indicators of narcissism are: grandiosity
> (Christ in the flesh, the Door Opener Apostle, the
> Lamp of Israel), a tendency to exaggerate
> achievements (ruling governments and economies
> with their prophetic word), a preoccupation with
> “fantasies of unlimited success, power,
> brilliance, beauty or ideal love” (the sons of
> God ruling and reigning with Him), a belief in
> one’s specialness which can only be understood
> by other special people (We are the Body of Christ
> and the rest of you are Babylon – well, except
> maybe now the Catholics), and a need for excessive
> admiration and a sense of entitlement (entering a
> worship service like a rock star and having the
> little people take care of your daily needs). The
> greatest in the Kingdom is the servant of all –
> just the opposite of all that!


Larry the link below is a study on narcissism in the ministry. The 2015 study found narcissistic personality disorder in the ministry is higher than in the general population. "...it seems the ministry attracts narcissists for the same reason that elementary schools and playgrounds attract pedophiles: These institutions provide access to victims."

[conflicttopeace.com]

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: NickleandDimed ()
Date: October 10, 2017 08:53AM

Thanks, lily. These kinds of psychological studies interest me. I skipped most of the study design info and went to the conclusion sections.

Regarding the narcissistic drive: "This presents a natural tension for the narcissist pastor in that his or her drive for power and adulation runs counter to Christian spirituality. How they might deal with this tension is nuanced but an ongoing tension nevertheless."

It seems the way John dealt with that tension was to gravitate to the Latter Rain MSOG you can become a god aberrant false teaching. Same for G-man.

The study says often church members challenged their narcissistic pastors. These churches apparently were not cults. The members hadn't been brainwashed into believing they couldn't speak up.

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Verbal Judo Behind Closed Doors
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: October 10, 2017 08:24PM

It should not be too surprising that a higher proportion of clergy in preaching ministries have NPD than in the general population.

Look at these statistics cited by Forbes Magazine.

Not everyone who enjoys public speaking will have NPD.

But if looking for
people who have NPD, that small group who love public speaking would be
a good pool to fish in.

Why We Fear Public Speaking And How To Overcome It

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

Quote

About 10 percent of the population loves public speaking. That group experiences no fear and get a huge buzz being in front of a large crowd.

Another 10 percent are genuinely terrified. Those are the people who are physically debilitated by even the thought of public speaking. True glossophobics will go to great lengths to avoid speaking in a group situation, and will experience nausea, panic attacks and extreme anxiety.

The rest of us – roughly the 80 percent in the middle – get butterflies, get anxious, don’t sleep much the night before – but we know that we’re going to live through it. It’s just not much fun.

Cult leaders go far beyond enjoying public speaking and getting a buzz from
the audience.

They regard you as an object, not a person.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

Oakes found that charismatic persons follow a fairly typical life course.

They often become gurus and religious leaders. They may teach quite useful skills, including meditation, but there is a problem, in that these people do not teach
from selflessness, no matter how much they claim to be selfless, no matter how
serenely they present themselves.

They teach because they need validation and because they need approval and trust
from an audience, and they teach because they need to acquire --and keep--
followers.

There's the rub. They have needs, and are unconscious about these needs.

Get, and read Prophetic Charisma 1997 Syracuse University Press by Len Oakes. Oakes is a research psychologist/clinician and after being in a commune led by a charismatic leader, he left, and decided to research how people become charismatic leaders.

Oakes was able to interview 20 charismatic leaders* and found amazing similarities in their life trajectories. Early in life, all these persons had difficulty with ordinary intimacy with peers, and compensated by becoming avid students of social manipulation/communication. Quite a few were in previous careers as entertainers, musicians, teachers, and in some cases, business.

If they later became gurus, they continued to use these social manipulation skills but claimed this was given to them when, out of the blue they became enlightened.

They do not tell disciples they have spent hours practicing verbal judo behind closed doors.

(Several other leaders refused to expose themselves to scrutiny and declined to participate in Oakes study. One, who never met Oakes in person, presumed to tell LO that his life was meaningless)

All were risk takers, and learned how to stay on top of all that went on in their groups. They could talk their way out of awkward situations and learned how to identify even the slightest bit of hesitation in an adversary or potential recruit and adroitly throw that person off balance.

'A common manipulative strategy used by leaders in this study was an argumentative style that was calculated to subtly shift the ground of any discussion from whatever matter was being talked about toward some area of an opponents personal insecurity. In this technique, the leader observed the process of an opponent's conversation and identified some point of hesitency and uncertainy. This was not always a flaw of logic or error of fact; the conversation may have been on some topic about which the leader would have known little and been unable to detect such a mistake. Rather, it was more likely to be some personal unsureness on the part of the opponent, that the leader's exquisite social perception targeted.

'...Typically what was said (by the leader) was an observation that the opponent seemed to be "a bit steamed up about this" or was "finding it hard to say what this is all about." In this was, the opponent was invited, sympathetically and seductively, to expand upon the very point of weakness.

'Or the leader claimed not to understand what was meant at a particular point, perhaps even saying that the opponent was not making sense.


'This usually lead to a further exposure, and then another, until the opponent stumbled over his words and began to look uncomfortable. At thsi point a well time dismissive glance from the leader was all that was needed to intimidate, the other person being glad to have the subject changed to how he might redeem his soul or however...'

(Oakes, pp 89-90)

Corboy reflection:

If a charismatic leader becomes successful, aquires disciples and assembles an entourage, trouble is likely. The leader may feel pressured by the many
disciples and then begin to hide. Gone are the early days when disciples
were on a first name basis with the teacher, ate together, shared meals
and jokes, gone the free and easy mood. Instead, the leader becomes less
accessible.

Rumors take the place of direct contact.

Favoritism rears its ugly
head.

Those with access to the guru become an elite. Those who fall from favor
become scapegoats.

Tension sets in.

Loyal older members who donated hours even years of time are shoved aside in favor of new recruits with glamour and money. Or, new recruits who are cute, beautiful and more entertaining than old timers who know the leader's human quirks and flaws.

If the leader spends years insulating him or herself with the the help of a selected entourage and large bank account, he or she will probably lose quite a few ordinary social skills (eg patience, the ability to accept differences of opinion, the ability to feel frustrated without exploding and dumping on an underling).

By this time, the leader will have little incentive to function any other way than as this kind of leader---someone who functions in a drastically unequal power imbalance and who hides the real self behind a public persona and whose emotional needs and flare ups are modulated and managed by an entourage who parent and nurture the guru and cover up for him or her.

A leader may teach a useful skill such as meditation. But the problem arises when
the teaching situation claims to be for the benefit of students but on the unspoken level, operates for the benefit of the teacher - to reassure the teacher that he or she is desirable and prop up the teacher's fragile self.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2017 08:33PM by corboy.

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: puddington ()
Date: October 11, 2017 12:25AM

Great posts, all of you.

This one paragraph jumped out at me. This is very accurate of the current LW leadership:

“Loyal older members who donated hours even years of time are shoved aside in favor of new recruits with glamour and money. Or, new recruits who are cute, beautiful and more entertaining than old timers who know the leader's human quirks and flaws.”

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: 40yearsin2016 ()
Date: October 11, 2017 06:58PM

"Cult leaders go far beyond enjoying public speaking and getting a buzz from
the audience.

They regard you as an object, not a person."

How many times did I hear JRS talk about being re-energized in his spirit when preaching - being able to go on for hours without any fatigue.

I remember listening to another preacher years later talking about how that same buzz often became a brain chemical addiction that sometimes led to alcoholism or worse - sound familiar?

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