I think many who have posted on this site found themselves in positions of some type of leadership, as well as being a follower while in TLWF. There was always someone over you as well as you being over someone else in TLWF hierarchy. I don’t recall ever having a sense of freedom as a leader to initiate an action without the direction of those over me. Any type of personal creativity was discouraged and you basically thought of yourself as a slave. You just did what you were told or followed the example of those you were accountable to. If you expected to function in an inner circle relationship – the reward for good behavior - there could not be even a slight deviation.

Many times, when your leader would no longer talk to you or even make eye contact, you had to guess what you had done incorrectly, rather than be effectively trained with some level of compassion. By incorrect, I mean not doing something the way they would have done it - not that you had necessarily done it poorly or with bad motives, just not the leader’s way. (It was good training for a bad marriage!) The big penalty was no longer being invited to special meetings where you talked about those on a lower level who had been excluded from the special meeting. God forbid you were on a low level! If you happened to be on the out, only after you had completed successful boot licking training were you allowed to return to the holy of holies. In hindsight, relationships were very conditional and very toxic - not really a relationship at all, but a weird dictatorship that somehow you had come to believe was God.

We were finally only left with one choice if we wanted to maintain any sense of personal integrity – you had to leave the fellowship. Most posters observed many damaging situations in the years prior to finally leaving TLWF. Granted, there was much wrong in the leadership. However, the light for leadership errors needs to shine directly on G & M who were directing everything, not the middle management who were trained to be yes men. Unfortunately, G & M have been exceptionally good at evading responsibility and transferring it to “false shepherds” they were actually directing behind the scenes. I think all of us have a measure of responsibility for not questioning the things we knew down deep were wrong. I would suggest the reason we are now finally having this dialogue in the first place is that at some point we did accept personal responsibility and broke free from the bondage.

I realize it’s not PC to accept personal responsibility – it’s much easier to point fingers at especially leaders to whom we’ve relinquished that personal responsibility. The problem is that if we don’t learn from our mistakes, the next “G & M” will come along and we will repeat the process. For me, the foundational error was allowing another human to take the place of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. What first appeared to be almost a shortcut to a walk with God by following John and believing he could impart it, ended up in the long run costing me decades. I honestly think I matured more in the couple of years after leaving TLWF than the previous 30 years of being “shepherded”. The spiritual MLM plan, like the business model, only works for the few at the top. When the parent/little child relationship extends into your 60’s, that is not a parent or child you want to boast about. It’s more an indication that both parties are dysfunctional. As a father, I’ve done my job when my children can stand on their own two feet, not become my dependents.

Well, here I am again posting after trying to leave this forum. The reason for my post is I was informed today that Susie (nee Hoctor) Pugh passed away a few months ago. Susie attended the Valley Church, Santa Barbara, and South Gate churches during the 1970's. She was a woman of God and filled with love. She would never shun anyone nor withhold sympathy. She didn't come from a dysfunctional family. Her father was a physician and I think Susie inherited his smarts. She was constantly loaning me books by non Walk authors. One time at a breakfast get together, an elder who was kind of chubby and full of himself, told Susie that she shouldn't drink from other fountains (meaning she should only read Walk literature). Susie nick named that elder "thick and dull" and continued to read non Walk literature. Susie married an elder named Daryl Pugh in the mid 70's. Daryl was in the military and attended South Gate. Susie leaves behind three children.

Now this is something that has concerned me for a while. I have a concern for Kboy and Larry Bobo. It appears from your posts that you have forgiven G&M and you talk about forgiveness and love yet you continue to bring up the failings of G&M (in Larry's case for over 10 years). Doesn't Matt 5:39 and Luke 17:3-4 tell us to turn the other cheek and those who keep account of such wrong doings are violating the very spirit of Christ. Our forgiveness is suppose to be freely offered and unconstrained even for repeat offenders. After all we are all repeat offenders. God forgives our sins and refuses to call them to mind by continually bringing them up. Shouldn't we (those who follow Christ) not keep bring up the failures of others if the sin is buried.

I feel kind of sad. I read a handful of posts today about John Miller and that's about all the reading I could handle. Miller was enthusiastic, engaging, and perky but he hurt folks even while under JRS but I agree with Slandjt that Miller wasn't any different from the other usual suspects in Apco. I also agree with Lampshamp that during Miller's time in the LW he and other ministries spoke as false prophets and the words often delivered were destructive. However, I don't think anyone is trying to stone Miller; folks are just trying to get at the truth without any spin. For me, I want to believe in the power of genuine repentance in providing healing if it is an admission of wrong doing, a plea for forgiveness and not blaming it on someone else such a JRS or G&M. That's talking responsibility.

Having said that, I also have to say this, I have empathy for the people that Miller hurt such as FCSLC, Slandjt and others. I really don't think in my youth I would have survived being told by a so called church leader that I was an contaminant or that I would never change or any of the destructive directives. I encourage Miller and others who are willing to keep reaching out to those that were hurt as it may help with their healing.

It's good to hear from you again Lily Rose. Happy new year.

I still try to understand eschatology, because of my short ride on the Walk space shuttle, what I believed before I bailed out I still to this day have in my head. It’s like I bailed out of the Walk space shuttle in time before it completely explodes, but I am still in my parachute trying to find solid ground.

I have heard it explained to me that the so called rapture of the church is a spiritual enlightenment and in a twinkle of the eye we that are alive and remain will become super-saints with resurrection eternal bodies. We will run around and do all of these signs and wonders instead of Christ, in face some of the old timers don’t believe Christ will ever return. But all of that crap had to be illuminated from my thinking before I can reach any understanding of where we are in history right now. I know there are signs that we are somewhere in the tribulation or just before, I am thinking that maybe we are in it. My body is not getting any better, as time goes on. I seem to be getting old, it’s not in a twinkle of the eye, but the changes seem to be coming faster and faster, OLD, not resurrected on my feet in a twinkle of the eye.

So I am saying on this first or early second day now of 2016 that I am going to really work on digging for answers from the bible. I had a dream one night were someone, and angel or the Lord or somebody told me “the answer is in the book.” I know that book is not any book I can buy at Living Word Fellowship. I just wish I could push the delete button and my mind would dump in the trash bin anything that I wanted it to, and I would immediately dump anything I ever learned of the Living Word material. All of it. I know that much of it is great information, but there was a certain spin on it.. As JRS used to say, 99% wheat and 1% rat poison. I can’t afford to try to sift that rat poison out of the wheat. It just can- not be done.

Happy New year to you too Apostle to the Dogs. Eschatology is pretty heady stuff. My sister's pastor tells the congregation at every service that they will soon be raptured before the tribulation. I don't think there are any guarantees about that. Good luck with your research.




Regarding my concern to Kboy and Larry Bobo mentioned in my above post and repeated below: While I realize that this forum is based on discussing the faults of cult leaders, Kboy and Larry your posts seem to be coming from a different place of following the teachings of CHrist about love and forgiveness. So please don't take my concern as a criticism or challenge or anything more than I just want to know your thoughts and point of view.


> I have a concern for Kboy and Larry Bobo.
> It appears from your posts that you have forgiven
> G&M and you talk about forgiveness and love yet
> you continue to bring up the failings of G&M (in
> Larry's case for over 10 years). Doesn't Matt 5:39
> and Luke 17:3-4 tell us to turn the other cheek
> and those who keep account of such wrong doings
> are violating the very spirit of Christ. Our
> forgiveness is suppose to be freely offered and
> unconstrained even for repeat offenders. After all
> we are all repeat offenders. God forgives our sins
> and refuses to call them to mind by continually
> bringing them up. Shouldn't we (those who follow
> Christ) not keep bringing up the failures of others
> if the sin is buried.
>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2016 04:15PM by lily rose.

L.B./L.R

Thanks to both for your candid contributions.

To begin, I’m sorry to hear about Susie Pugh’s passing. I remember both her and Daryl from my early days in LA. Everyone got a kick out of her married name, with the famous Credence song, ‘Susie Q’, not long forgotten. I never knew what became of them after the 70’s.

To address L.B.’s point; unfortunately the guru/disciple, priest/practitioner dynamic has been around since time immemorial, and is found throughout society in all manner of iterations. What made Jesus so revolutionary is that he taught an end-run around all of it with RELATIONSHIP trumping religion. This did not preclude fellowshipping with others, but established a new paradigm where the relationships were fluid and organic, rather than stratified and organized--what we were all believing for as an end result of the ‘Kingdom being relationships’. I guess that 'New Testament Church pattern' has still failed to deliver the goods.

I am very happy to hear that your post-TLW experience has been as fruitful as it has been, an experience shared by many, but not all. Avenues for proper recovery have not found their way into everyone’s life, which is one of the reasons this forum even exists. Perhaps it will provide additional assistance for those unable to find it elsewhere.

To address L.R.’s point; FORGIVENESS of individuals yet highlighting ongoing infractions are apples and oranges. Any references to past history are to hopely understand events we failed to comprehend during their occurrence, but bringing up the continuation of those practices will hopefully provide those with proximity to current members a better understanding of how to shed light for those still in darkness.

LOVE & FORGIVENESS are the only way forward. I bring up the Miller situation because I am familiar with it, and it stands as an example of the way forward. There are still certain blind spots which persist regarding the past, but that is understandable when one believes they were doing the ‘Will of God’ for four decades. My emphasis has been to highlight a willingness to address those hurts, something that was not taken from any APCO leadership playbook. And, as L.B. and others have pointed out, this would apply to all who were involved in any leadership capacity during their tenure in TLW. The higher up the food chain only meant a greater ability to distribute harm. We should all conduct a thorough inventory of our involvement and then proceed with due diligence.

This is getting more and more interesting all the time. It's amazing how much you can get out of the bible when you just read it and not listen to anybody, not get their opinion or their agenda planted in your head before you read it in context for yourself.

I am wondering where JRS thought we were in the picture. I guess by what he said about Satan being bound, I guess that means in the abyss, I recall when all of us "shepherds" fasted that night and put him in there. We lasted about three hours then we went out to eat and drink. But I guess that if JRS figured Satan was bound for the thousand years, then he must have known about the battle of Armegeddon happening and it being over. I guess we all missed it because we didn't watch all of that news, we got it straight from the pulpit.

A.D.

As most are aware by now, both in and out of the fellowship, the ‘shape of things to come’ not only failed to manifest in the ‘year of expectation’, but have continued to be shapeless to this day. Treading further, one will find a certain percentage of participants on this forum who no longer believe everything they read in the Bible, myself included. That is to be distinguished from what Jesus actually taught, something I feel Christianity and the Bible do not represent.

In hindsight, it is no surprise at the lack of professed manifestation we all witness to this day. Christianity has been anticipating the ‘kingdom on the earth’ for 2000+ years, even after Jesus succinctly stated that, “I go to prepare a place for you, so that where I AM (in HEAVEN, not on earth), you will be there with me also”. Even though Christianity preaches one thing, Jesus taught quite another.

JRS was bound to the limitations of what he accepted as true. If you swallow the Bible lock, stock, and barrel, and Christianity in general, that is all you will know. We should have gotten a clue that the culture of fear represented in the Holy Jim Canyon experience was not an accurate characterization of a LOVING GOD, but we decided to drink the Kool-Aid and march in lockstep. Even Thomas Jefferson smelled out that rat and jettisoned everything in the Bible except the quotes from Jesus. That was only a start in recapturing the GOSPEL of LOVE that was hijacked by Rome. The landscape is now plentiful with those who are embracing the HEART and jettisoning the religion.

The MESSAGE was simple: LOVE GOD, LOVE your Brother. Any other version is pure fiction.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2016 09:23AM by kBOY.

I think the saddest thing that happens because of some nut case with charisma getting the attention of young Christians that are trying to walk with God, is they turn them sour on the word of God, since they can't trust the "revelations" that their former guru fed them, they get to where they can't trust the bible at all.

I am finding something different KBOY, I am finding that the bible makes a whole lot of sense when I read it for myself, but only when I can get the conditioning out of my mind that I accepted in that cult.

It turns out, in my opinion, the Assemblies of God and the other group JRS was in were absolutely right when they booted JRS out. Him and the jokers that hooked up with him and took control after he died have caused a hell of a lot of damage.

I know that Christ is all about love. I know that lots of people don't believe it any more, people that post here, but just because JRS was a wizzard at twisting scripture, does not mean that the scripture is twisted.

I hope you all don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

lily rose,
I know in my journey to go deeper with forgiveness, I would no longer post much of what I did on Factnet. My posts in the first few years after leaving TLWF were more of a vomit session – not something I’d like to make a lifestyle out of. I felt deliberately lied to for personal gain at my expense and was trying to come to grips with the loss of 30+ years I had apparently foolishly wasted. About the time I would consider removing some of the things I had posted, I’d get an encouraging email from someone who found what I had said to be helpful to them for the place they were at in their own journey. I know from the couple of years of professional counseling I went through that if nothing else, it can be encouraging to know your reactions are normal and you are not crazy – even if they are not very pretty. Hopefully. that's helpful to someone.

Fast forward to the present – I don’t think ignoring the violations in TLWF is helpful to the leadership or the current members. I can ( and have) sat down with leaders in TLWF and discussed many of the areas I’ve posted about, and done so with far more love and openness than what was expressed to me in return. It’s amazing the “deception” you are accused of being under when you start reading Jesus’ words for yourself. I happen to think the truth in love sets everybody free – even when there is only a dimly burning wick. It’s been forgiveness that has given me the courage and freedom to even have those conversations. I’ve always used my real name in my posts, and they certainly know where I live – I’m not just taking secret pot shots at them. That’s just me – anyone else should certainly feel free to express whatever anonymously and experience the camaraderie that they are not alone.

Both Jesus and Paul did not tolerate the teaching of the wolves in sheep’s clothing. They had dinner with them, debated with them, and hoped they would have a change of heart – and a few did. As I’m sure you also know, hindsight is 20/20 and there is much wisdom from the school of hard knocks that could be passed on from those outside the fellowship with a little more objective view to those who are still under the spell. This site is being viewed by far more than those who are regularly posting and it’s to those in the balances that I would like to see have information that they certainly are not going to get in the fellowship. There are not many who are more in love with Jesus after their time in TLWF than when they were in the fellowship, and that in itself gives a little insight to the fruit of abuse. When the deception bubble pops, it’s quite embarrassing to admit to some of the doctrines we believed that are foundational to TLWF. (e.g. Submit your life to me and I will give you the power to overcome death – hopefully you’ll ignore the fact that I don’t have it to give you and am dying myself unless you submit to me even more and we breakthrough into this new level, etc. etc. - Oh, and BTW, as you close down the churches for declining membership, be sure and send the money to Hargrave Family Ministries, PTL) Maybe that's a personal attack in the eyes of some - to me it's just turning on the lights so people you care about don't stumble in the dark.