We probably left before you joined. I was just a kid. It was the worst time of my life. You may have heard of my dad ... Paul Holder. He was infamous by the late 70's, but in my mind he will always be infamous. You probably remember the Machal's? I know Michelle. She is no longer in it, but the rest of her family is.

I knew Mark and Fred well. I liked being around them...thought they were very good-natured.
What was so 'infamous' about your Dad, BTW?

He left with 40 from Coniah to start a mine...which of course was a pipe dream.

I'm still here to listen, but don't have a lot to add.

Lets talk about LW worship. The whole expression of "singing in the spirit" that the LWF seems to
think they invented. I've asked other churches about this and why they didn't do it. I got the answer like this:
"we got into it a bit, but stopped. It seemed like it was something that should be done in private and not
in public". Another said "we experimented with it but decided not to do it because we could not find enough
about it in the Bible to verify that it was a legitimate expression". Another group said "it was too weird".

Too weird. Interesting. I've often thought that it was a trance inducing exercise that got a person's brain soft
enough to receive the teaching. Depending on how you look at it, this could be a good thing or a bad thing. Some people
have accused the idea of charismatic worship as a mass-hypnosis session. Were the things you felt real? or just imagined
because you really wanted it to happen so bad? Not sure.

I think that the militant and "one-ness style" worship of the LWF is a product of people giving themselves to another. Young
adults are taught to watch the worship leader and treat him as if he were God himself leading you. They were discouraged
(at Shiloh summer camp) from closing their eyes and seeking God "in the sky". But to focus on the worship leader as the
focal point to God. A subtle difference but significant, I think. The allows a worship service to be controlled tightly.
When you (as the worship leader) want it loud - you can make it loud. When you want everyone on their knees in silence,
you can do that too. Everyone will follow you, because no one wants to be the "gourd" that does something different.
You are the "bad guy" if you break the unity.

There is a self-filtering thing going on in the LWF. They pride themselves on how they have "heart and mind agreement" on
all things. They marvel at their "one-ness". But these aspects came about from the group's self-filtering.
Here is how it works. If you have a different point of view, or disagree, you will be cast in a poor light. And if you don't
toe-the-line, eventually you will be shamed (or set) out of the body. This is how the one-ness happens. Those that
disagree are told to hit the highway. Quite simple, really. I think this is basically how Jonestown worked, too.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Quote
paleface
Lets talk about LW worship. The whole expression of "singing in the spirit" that the LWF seems to
think they invented. I've asked other churches about this and why they didn't do it. I got the answer like this:
"we got into it a bit, but stopped. It seemed like it was something that should be done in private and not
in public". Another said "we experimented with it but decided not to do it because we could not find enough
about it in the Bible to verify that it was a legitimate expression". Another group said "it was too weird".

Too weird. Interesting. I've often thought that it was a trance inducing exercise that got a person's brain soft
enough to receive the teaching. Depending on how you look at it, this could be a good thing or a bad thing. Some people
have accused the idea of charismatic worship as a mass-hypnosis session. Were the things you felt real? or just imagined
because you really wanted it to happen so bad? Not sure.

I think that the militant and "one-ness style" worship of the LWF is a product of people giving themselves to another. Young
adults are taught to watch the worship leader and treat him as if he were God himself leading you. They were discouraged
(at Shiloh summer camp) from closing their eyes and seeking God "in the sky". But to focus on the worship leader as the
focal point to God. A subtle difference but significant, I think. The allows a worship service to be controlled tightly.
When you (as the worship leader) want it loud - you can make it loud. When you want everyone on their knees in silence,
you can do that too. Everyone will follow you, because no one wants to be the "gourd" that does something different.
You are the "bad guy" if you break the unity.

There is a self-filtering thing going on in the LWF. They pride themselves on how they have "heart and mind agreement" on
all things. They marvel at their "one-ness". But these aspects came about from the group's self-filtering.
Here is how it works. If you have a different point of view, or disagree, you will be cast in a poor light. And if you don't
toe-the-line, eventually you will be shamed (or set) out of the body. This is how the one-ness happens. Those that
disagree are told to hit the highway. Quite simple, really. I think this is basically how Jonestown worked, too.

Just my 2 cents worth.

When it started ------originally---singing in the spirit took a much different approach to what it became later. Bill

We went to our son's wedding.The church congregation of about 100 who we nor our family knew were strange almost in a state of group hypnosis and did not include us in the service just the members parents. It surprised us and our two other attending adult children when the minister stated explaining our son's upbringing was bad just like the minister'-this in front of us and our family who were all amazed at these statements. This tactic may have been to get our son to believe that that minister and the church finally saved or respected him.It was like the only reason to get married and into that church was because they were going to rescue-then the church attendees who knew nothing of our son and never met him or us went into a voodoo like arm raising chant. Since this wedding the church has worked our son into alienating his entire direct family,parents,brothers and sister,and their young children.He use to collect antiques and saved everything from his childhood and now doesn't want anything of his childhood.Our son went to a great HS and graduated from college.This church worked on his weaknesses to take advantage nd made him think they were the light-and that it is okay as long as he is with them to forget your family.We don't think he will ever talk or communicate with us as he doesn't even respond to calls or emails.We wish him happiness but want to let other know to watch out it doesn't happen to them. What a devious way to get church member. This Living Word church is in North Hills.

Hey Jerry,

This is David W. We did a stint together at the sawmill from '78-'79. My journey started in Haiku in '75 with Charlie C. while you were with Dean P. on Kauai. I currently live in San Diego and see the Perry's regularly.

If you left the fellowship back in '81, that was when JRS was still alive. Much water has gone under the bridge since then. Things actually "improved" after his passing, but as you can gather from this forum, the Kingdom has certainly NOT come as anticipated, in or out of the fellowship.

I have only recently left the reservation after spending 35 years of dedicated involvement, but NOT for reasons many post here. Mine was more of an expanded revelation of who God REALLY is, not as some would portray Him to be. To say I underwent a dramatic paradigm shift would be an understatement.

I regularly meet with a few Living Word ex-pats who reside here in San Diego, and one thing is dramatically clear--there is little upside to dwelling continually on "war stories" of days gone by, and these are folks with 30+ years of heavy involvement. After the initial cathartic downloads that are necessary to heal one's wounds, then you MUST move forward into what God is currently doing, up to and including what lessons were to be learned during the times of involvement with the fellowship. The Living Word does not have the market cornered on screwing things up. (Just take a tour of the rest of this forum.) It's a condition of humanity that you will find not only in any organized "religion", but in government, business, and unfortunately, family.

It's all about MISSING THE POINT--the point of who we REALLY are in God.

I'm glad to hear you have turned the corner and are back on the path of rediscovery. I'd be more than happy to discuss any and all topics concerning TLW or your own personal experiences, but please keep in mind what I mentioned earlier. Learn, then forgive and forget--God has better things for you.

BTW--Art Y.'s youngest son, Evan, lives here in San Diego and is like a second son to us. Art still lives on Maui.

Vaya con Dios,
David W.

I am looking for information about a former member of this church. His name is Dan White. If anyone has knowledge or information regarding Mr. White, please contact me. Or if you know someone that may be of assistance, please Email me.

What little information I have is posted below:

* He was married in San Jose approximately 1972 to another member of this church
* 1973, he and his wife went to Honolulu on a mission
* 1974, returned to San Jose
* 1978, went to Kalona, Iowa (Shiloh)
* 1978, he and his wife had a daughter - the daughter was removed from their home for some unknown reason
* 1983, the family moved to Phoenix, Arizona
* 1985, Mr. White was expelled from the church

I know that there is a Mitch White married to a Susan White. They have daughter named Suzanne who is probably in her early thirties. Possibly thirty four. They belong to the North Hills Church in North Hills California.