Welcome, Shamrock. That's an interesting link to Charles Parham's biography. I'm inserting a link to your post in case this goes to a new page. [forum.culteducation.com]

I noticed that you have participated in several threads on this forum, so am assuming that you were not part of The Walk under John Robert Stevens or the more recent version of the group called The Living Word Fellowship under Gary Hargrave. But you seem to have correctly sorted out that it grew out of Pentecostalism.

Some of my fellow former TLWF members and I have recently been discussing how congregational speaking or singing in tongues led to a trance-like state. This part of the church service nearly always preceded the sermon. So by the time that the preacher was speaking, we were all in a very suggestible frame of mind. JRS called it "having our spirits open". We also stood for hours with our eyes closed and our hands raised during the worship. (I have the bad back to prove it, too.) It was an extremely controlled environment. I now believe that this was all part of JRS's plan to create a group that would accept him as "The Apostle to the Kingdom". In the early days of his ministry, people would often fall, or be "slain in the spirit" when he placed his hands on their heads. I once witnessed a young woman falling down and appearing to go into labor. This lasted for at least one hour or more. She wasn't pregnant, and no one around me seemed alarmed. Some women put something under her head and covered her legs with something for the sake of modesty. I was new to the group, and never forgot that experience because it was so frightening. Just for the record, besides leaving TLWF over ten years ago, I will no longer attend any church, engage in speaking in tongues or let anyone touch my head.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2022 07:18AM by Reepicheep.

It’s been several years since I posted. I just came across an old book in my basement titled “The New Cults” by Walter Martin, 1980 which includes a chapter on The Walk. It includes an analysis of why some of the basic teachings of the Walk are completely unbiblical. It is a reminder that even from it’s very beginning, the Walk was a false religion. A few excerpts from the book follow:

God
The Walk teaches that human deification is possible:

When you ask the Lord Jesus to come into your heart and make you a child of God, you do not see the physical manifestation immediately. Something must first be wrought in your nature so that you will want to be a child of God and not a human being. Therefore, the Lord puts you through a process that will bring you into sonship, into deity…Assume the deity that God wants his people to have…..Like the Corinthians, you have not only the right, but also the responsibility of accepting deity… You have a responsibility to participate in God, a responsibility to react and respond with deity. (from Plumb Perfect, January 1977)

The erroneous teaching that men can become God is totally foreign to the Bible. Isaiah 31:3,4 shows the contrast between men and God, between the finite and the infinite, between flesh and spirit. God will not be manifested in and through His church, as Stevens claims. Christ does not become the church, and the church does not become Christ.

Christ
The Church of the Living Word would rob Jesus Christ of His unique title as God the Son, second Person of the Trinity. In the theology of the Church of the Living Word, Jesus Christ becomes the church, and we as believers become part of Christ. He is no longer the only-begotten Son of God but is instead some sort of impersonal realm of deity, in whose attributes and nature all Christians share. In John's interpretation, Christ is not one individual any longer, but Christ is composed of a many-membered Body. The Lord Jesus Christ left His individuality to become the Head of this great corporate Body, the Body of Christ of many members.

Christ is not one Man, one Person: Christ is a many-membered Body. The Head is in heaven and we are members of that Body on earth. We are the Manchild that has been brought forth to rule and reign. The future of Christ is our future because we are a part of the Christ. We are members of the Christ…… We will reign with Him because are identified and one with Him. Everything that He is, we are. Everything that He will be, we will be. Everything over which He has dominion and authority, throughout the ages, we share in, because we are a part of the Christ. (The Manchild , 1972)

Christ Himself is forever divorced from individuality. Even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet we know Him so no longer (II Cor. 5:16). The Lord Jesus Christ is no longer an individual. Never again will He be known as one Man. When He comes, He will be revealed in His people. He is coming to be glorified in us, to be admired in us! (Whole and Complete – at His Presence, 1977)

Jesus also said that He and the Father will make their abode in us (John 14:23). He was saying that after His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension to the Father, His spirit would once again be universalized. Then He could dwell in each one of us as perfectly and completely as He was dwelling in the body of the Nazarene. This means that Christ is coming forth in us now. We see Christ in each other. (Judgment: When We Do and When We Don’t, 1977)

John 1:14,18 are verses which clearly deny the Christology of John Robert Stevens. There are not many Christs: there is only one Christ (Matthew 16:16,17). In the original Greek text we find the word monogenes translated as "only" or "one and only," or in some translations as "only-begotten." In the Greek this word means "'unique" or "'one of a kind." We are not all Christs, since these verses show that Jesus Christ is the unique Son of God. Why then are Christians called sons of God? Romans 8:14-17 calls us sons of God and co-heirs with Christ, and verse 23 explains the way in which we are sons: we are adopted sons of God. Jesus Christ, sharing the nature of the Father, is the natural Son of God. What Christ had by divine right we obtain by divine grace through Him. The relationship between Jesus and believers is clearly defined in Hebrews 2:10,11,14-18.

As everyone on this forum knows, JRS, Gary and Marilyn were experts at twisting the scriptures in bizarre ways but these are some of the most heretical teachings that JRS created.

ForgottenIA Wrote:

> Again, I know this is a lot of questions, all the
> information I’ve been sifting through has been
> overwhelming.
>
> I welcome anybody to PM me, or look up ForgottenIA
> on FB and message there (this will also be the
> platform the story is released on.


Well done, ForgottenIA.

Good job, ForgottenIA.

[www.facebook.com]

ForgottenIA wrote:
JRS reportedly referred to Shiloh as “the center of the universe”. Whether that was implied spiritually, or in regards to the organization’s operations; it became the center of many followers’ universes.

A few posts that reference the 'center of the universe' (COTU) in this forum:

Posted by: Reepicheep
Date: September 29, 2019 09:03AM

changedagain wrote:
In my case, years ago I decided that simply writing truthfully about my experiences in that mess while reading other ex-member's accounts, was worthwhile in itself. It helped lift me out of the doldrums and provided purpose. Yet, we're all wired differently, and what is helpful for one may not work for another.

Of course, we were taught never to prioritize our own personal well-being, and just finding a way to drop that pernicious conditioning is a big step toward "moving forward." Each person's mental and emotional state should be top priority.

p.s. It's been over 20 years since I paid a visit to the "center of the universe," and I haven't missed it.

Trying to remember my last trip to The Center of the Universe...1995 or 1996 or before? Wow, over 20 years for me too.

I'm glad that you have been speaking up for so many years, changedagain. Writing is therapy, but it helps those reading too. ; )


Posted by: kBOY ()
Date: September 02, 2019 08:45PM

REEP:

My involvement lasted into 2009, and as far as I remember, it seemed like much of the JRS infused delusions had fairly dissipated by the time I left. I would venture to say, there was almost a thorough repudiation of much of the JRS doctrines, including:

1) Kingdom come by 1979
2) Door-opener apostle
3) 1000 prophets marching throughout the land
4) Conquering the seven realms
5) Violent intercession
6) Shiloh--the center of the universe
7) The Shape of Things to Come
8) Etc., etc., etc. . .

Not only that, much of the 70's wind had gone out of our sails by then and the anticipation/expectation level of anything dramatic actually happening was just about nil. The yearly schedule of feasts had been reduced to going through the motions as we were brow-beat with one 'new day' after another . . . which were just a repeat of the same Groundhog 'daze'.

Posted by: larry bobo
Date: September 22, 2018 08:13AM

After reading a number of books on cults and researching on the internet, the thing that surprised me the most was how alike they all were. I assumed my experience in TLWF was unique, and nothing at all like other groups. The techniques the leaders use in all groups - not just Christian - are remarkably similar. There are even other fringe Christian groups out there with Shilohs who also think they are the center of the universe. Another big eye opener was the similarity in the damage done to followers. If you enjoy history, you might check out "When Prophesy Fails" by Leon Festinger, Henry Riecken, and Stanley Schachter. It examine groups over hundreds of years. It's surprising how human nature will double down in the face of an obvious lie - e.g. the kingdom dawning in 1979. Our experience in TLWF is certainly not new and as rrmoderator has suggested, we will be well served by knowing more about the existing body of knowledge before re-inventing the wheel.

Posted by: paleface
Date: May 19, 2015 06:01AM

If your family member is moving to Iowa to be a part of Shiloh then I would be concerned. They have hired PR firms to help improve their image. They will tell you how much they have changed. My opinion, it's still the cult it has always been. The leaders still claim that "Shiloh is the center of the universe", for example. The main pastors are very ruthless people. If you question anything, you will be kicked out quickly.

There is a growing group of ex-LW people in Iowa. You can spot them on the streets of Kalona. They are the ones with the big smiles on their faces.

It would be better if your family member lived in Iowa City, if possible.

Posted by: Factoverfiction
Date: June 28, 2015 07:47PM

Thanks for the welcomes everyone.
Lily: I am familiar with IHOP and Kansas City, I know a group of burnouts that affiliate with Kansas City, as well as some current members that checked out IHOP in 2010ish. This was around the time of Todd Bentley, and G&M were reaching out to other evangelistic ministries. They were actually at a Todd Bentley service on TV in L.A. and prophesied with him there. This was before all the controversy with Bentley of course.

I believe the general consensus of these entities was that they were "Really close to breaking into a level of DEEPER WORSHIP, deeper prophesy, and deeper communion, like we have." G&M were really into signs and wonders from 2005 to recently. They'd invite people like Mahesh Chavdah, who tried to convince people that there was gold dust everywhere, and that he'd raised the dead. I'm still unsure if we were supposed to simply be polite with this new "crazy uncle" Mahesh guy, or believe that maybe he was being half sincere/half hyperbolic but that Gary could perfect his methods and actually have those gifts. Regardless, Mahesh confirmed in a vision that "There was a stadium full of people at Shiloh, with masses from across the world travelling there."

It's entirely possible that he was referencing Field of Dreams, but we took it as confirmation of JRS's prophecy that Shiloh was the center of the universe. I mean, duh.

Maybe the public at large should be alerted to the fact that the Center of the Universe (not just the Center of the World or the Galaxy, mind you) has been burned to the ground due to foundation issues. You know, in case they want to stockpile dried soybeans for the last days or something. :o

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe the public at large should be alerted to the
> fact that the Center of the Universe (not just the
> Center of the World or the Galaxy, mind you) has
> been burned to the ground due to foundation
> issues. You know, in case they want to stockpile
> dried soybeans for the last days or something. :o

Due to 'foundation issues'--that captures it.


This comment from November of 2019:

Posted by: Imapurple
Date: November 26, 2019 07:23PM

I was standing outside with JRS one late night at Shiloh and he was looking at the water tower and he said , one day lightning is going to hit that thing and this whole damn place is going to burn down. Well, maybe it’s wasn’t lightning but it’s sure burning down. I truly believe that he was regretful of his openness to Marilyn and all the craziness that followed. I believe he knew it was wrong and knew God was never in all that. I’m not making excuses for him. I just think he knew he had been buying into his own BS and the BS that was always around him. On his bed as he was sick and dying he cried out asking Martha for forgiveness. He knew.......

A post by 'Saw enough' from November 2015:


Posted by: Saw enough
Date: November 03, 2015 04:13AM

What Larry Bobo said about a Shiloh pastor being interviewed and saying he could not recall praying for John’s resurrection was an example of LWF authority just reshaping their narratives for their own convenience.

Every civilization develops its narratives – its creation stories, genealogies, stories of battles won and how they came to be. Churches are no different. Martin Luther, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Ron L. Hubbard, the Apostle Paul, Jim Jones -- all claim to have had a unique experience that qualified them to be listened to.

The Walk had its own narrative – none of us were really around during its beginnings, but they involved special prophecies over Robert Stevens, personal appearing of Jesus Christ to him, changing his name to John Robert Stevens, and others. One critic of the Living Word wrote that every time the church was on the verge of a split or crisis, Brother Stevens would have another meeting with the Lord and be able to keep the group going. None of us were there – and we can’t really say for sure if the meetings were real or not.

The big vision of 7 years into the Kingdom came during another time of crisis. John disappeared for an entire day and when he presented the vision to the church later that week he said he’d been so overtaken in the spirit that he had no concept of time or space. The prophets at the Valley church all jumped in with theories of time warps in the spirit, and loud amens to the vision.

Many years after John’s death, a group split off from the church and there discussions around the Valley that one of the Blix girls was supposed to have told Marilyn that she was with John that day and that Marilyn was pissed about it but believed it because the story never quite made sense. Of course, John could have still have been with one of the girls and still had that vision into the future, but he could also have just made up the story as a cover for not being able to account for his whereabouts. Most people just accepted the vision on face value and then based their entire lives on it for the next 30 years. If John did not have the vision, it would constitute a huge betrayal to people who trusted him, even if it was only one episode in a long life of service to God. It doesn’t either invalidate everything he did or let him off the hook, but it’s been excluded from the official narrative. If Gary and Marilyn believed the account of the Blix girl, you have to wonder why they continued to reference the vision year after year, all the way into this year, in fact. Or again, perhaps they did believe her but they also thought that God still gave him the vision. They have remained silent on the matter.

In this modern age, can you afford to say “this vision was not ever confirmed” and still retain your credibility? What if the Mormons were to say, “Okay maybe there wasn’t an Angel Moroni and magic tablets and spectacles helping Joseph Smith translate the Book of Mormon from gold plates. But the rest of our teaching is sound.”

Along the way there were other teachings unique only to them – the unequal yoke justifications to break up marriages or to remarry, the Mom and Dad era which lasted until they decided that they didn’t want to be everyone’s Mom and Dad, which led to the whole era of designated relationships and mentors and teachings about killing the male spirit, worshiping Christ in the flesh, Lamps of Israel, etc.

Gary has become the interpreter of everything that happens to the group. When John died, he rebuked the people who were feeling a release and peace in the spirit – condemning them for feeling satisfied when they should have been pissed over the lack of fulfillment. Later he said that he and Marilyn had noticed a lack of the spirit of Satan in the warfare, and concluded that it was because John had taken down Satan with his death. This was routinely proclaimed and accepted. Sometime after Gary went to seminary, Satan re-emerged in the teachings as a foe to be fought, and the leadership just revised their narrative again and denied that they had ever taught this. Then when other stories about John emerged indicating that he had not always been “faithful” to Marilyn – even though he was not married to her, Gary brought words citing John’s real sin as being disobedience. When someone like Bob McClane died, Gary turned his memorial service into a rant about how pissed he was that Bob did not overcome his weaknesses. When David Boney died from a car accident, it was presented as an act of bravery by someone who wasn’t afraid to go to the other side.

When Marilyn died, Gary told the people that their prayers had not failed, but that she had been transported to the cloud of witnesses and was still alive and functioning from her place in the spirit realm. He is skilled at handling the scriptures, including the Biblical view of what happens in death and after death. But his is also demanding that the people get rid of any confusion about Marilyn’s death and accept at face value his interpretation of what Marilyn’s death means now.

There are other options of interpretation – she might have died of old age. The healing that the churches had claimed was proof that they’d broken into miracles may have been a simple remission followed by a simple relapse. Her life may have been a mixed narrative of great sacrifices to support John and preserve the Word, and great secrecy and manipulation behind the scenes to get his wife out of the picture and herself as his mate. It could be a legacy of making a lot of people feel included mixed with a violent temper and anger that drove others away. Or pulling the pieces together of John’s empire during a difficult time and making it a more efficient group of churches and yet terrorizing a lot of people who didn’t match up to her demands by creating authorities who would enforce her philosophy of “my way or the highway.”

Instead of being instantly elevated to a place of authority in the cloud of witnesses, perhaps her spirit has been freed from her flesh and she is at rest, better able to see what in her life was true and not true. Maybe she found peace, maybe death just brings an end to all the turmoil. No one knows for certain, which is why most people feel humility when their lives are impacted by death.

A little healthy skepticism or a time of waiting for confirmation of these many narratives might have saved a lot of damage to people’s lives. But they are doubling down with greater certainty than ever before.
In many cases the people followed with a simple, childlike trust even while their leaders were more cynical behind the scenes. The end of bringing forth the Kingdom might justify the means in their eyes. But their willingness to engage in cover-ups and the whitewashing of their own narrative to appear more acceptable to the Christian world doesn’t speak well to a community that claims to be pursuing the truth.

It would help sometimes if these great movements would start by taking a version of the Hippocratic oath to “First, do no harm.”

I am not saying this to “bring down the Walk” or even say that God was not ever in the teachings or activities of the church. But for those who have decided to move on to a different way of life, you should know that perhaps you didn’t just “blow out” or lose faith – maybe you were being led into a better and healthier way of life. None of us can reclaim the time we spent there, but it’s still possible to have a meaningful life apart from their heavy hand.

A post by fromsouthchicago (Marilyn's cousin), and a response from Reepicheep:

Posted by: fromsouthchicago
Date: November 19, 2020 11:43PM

If you want to know the truth, I called Marilyn "evil" in the flesh. Along with variety of other choice descriptions.

I'm not sure I'll ever understand what it was that resulted her being so twisted and power hungry. And her off-spring, Rick, my first cousin once removed. What turned him into such a monster? Was it just because he's Marilyn's son or something more? Absolute power corrupts absolutely? Or is there something more to consider?

I'll probably never have a complete understanding, but I am attempting to get my head around what made them what they were and are.
If you want to know the truth, I called Marilyn "evil" in the flesh. Along with variety of other choice descriptions.

I'm not sure I'll ever understand what it was that resulted her being so twisted and power hungry. And her off-spring, Rick, my first cousin once removed. What turned him into such a monster? Was it just because he's Marilyn's son or something more? Absolute power corrupts absolutely? Or is there something more to consider?

I'll probably never have a complete understanding, but I am attempting to get my head around what made them what they were and are.

****************************

Reepicheep wrote:

fromsouthchicago,
I knew Marilyn since I was a teenager in the late 1960s. Her children were still in school at that time, as was I. I noticed way back then that she had a snotty side and that she was often around JRS. At the time I chalked it up to her "secretary" status. Over the years, the haughtiness became much more pronounced. Luckily I managed to steer clear most of the time. I do remember that a few times in the 1990s in the local church I attended we were instructed to substitute Marilyn's name instead of "Lord" in a worship song. I felt very weird about that. Gary and Marilyn were teaching something about God in the sky vs God in your face. So to prove that we believed in "Christ in the flesh", we were supposed to use her name in the song. If you dared to speak up and voice your concern, you would risk losing your family, your friends, and your entire social support system. It was get with the program or get out. Effing cult.

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ForgottenIA Wrote:
>
> > Again, I know this is a lot of questions, all
> the
> > information I’ve been sifting through has been
> > overwhelming.
> >
> > I welcome anybody to PM me, or look up
> ForgottenIA
> > on FB and message there (this will also be the
> > platform the story is released on.
>
>
> Well done, ForgottenIA.

I am glad to see many former members were able to appreciate the article I wrote. Thank you to everybody that has shared their stories within this forum, as well as the few that have conversed with me.