Changedagain: Perfection.

Can we find one with a sinking church?

Onion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Changedagain: Perfection.
>
> Can we find one with a sinking church?

Not sure--but I'm sure I can come come across one where ministries are burning documents as unto the Lord.

Possible caption: "Our burnt offering, pleasing to the Lord."

I decided to do a search of all RR forums for the phrase 'upward flow." The results are telling: 92 comments included that term, 83 of them in our discussion group. The only other groups in which the phrase was used more than once were (and yes, these are the names of real discussion groups):
1) The Downside of Yoga
2) Recovering from New Age Mumbo Jumbo.

Here is a sampling of the comments in this forum. Sorry, even though it is abridged, it still is rather lengthy. I would not fault you if you reported this to the moderator :)

‘Upward Flow’-related comments on RR
Larry Bobo (Aug 2, 2013)
Many have recognized there was a point where John's focus shifted from God to Marilyn and the whole direction of TLWF shifted. Instead of John serving and equipping the body, the body reversed directions and started the upward flow. God in the sky was mocked in comparison to God in John. A hierarchy of control took over that was much more destructive than anything we had known in "old order". Instead of God's spirit bringing liberty, there was the oppression of
drunken shepherds who could not run their own lives, much less anybody else's.

Paleface (January 11, 2014)
I think the way Mike Wood felt is rather commonplace. Many members stay in the fellowship because they have been programmed to believe that their lives
would be empty and hollow if they were not in "the upward flow". What mental bondage!

Paleface ( January 14, 2014)
My last post might have been a bit offensive to some. Let me re-phrase it. Ask yourself this: " do any of the people in leadership at the LW seem a bit power-hungry?" Do you recall Jesus ever teaching about the "upward flow principle" or the "90/10 rule" that Gary and Marilyn Hargrave teach?

Paleface (January 12, 2014)
The 90/10 rules is this: local shepherds are to only spend 10% of their energy on the sheep, and spend 90% of their energy ministering to the "upward
flow", i.e. Marilyn. This also is reflected in how the finances flow out of the local church. But it was more like 80/20. Most local churches send 80% of their tithes to LA.

Changedagain (May 11, 2014) The churches I was involved with, following the death of John and the assumption of his "mantle" by Gary and Marilyn, placed the highest priority on having the thinking of Marilyn, and recognizing "Christ in the flesh." In other words, the whole concept of first seeking a relationship with "God in the sky", and trusting that you could have a direct
relationship, was not only downplayed, but often ridiculed. On the few occasions I spoke or acted, independent of top leadership, I paid for it dearly...as did my wife.

Larry Bobo (June 6, 2014)
As in most human institutions, the upward flow only benefits the few at the top.

Ditch Digging Yasper (August 19, 2014)
Rather than anger, I feel pity for the people still in the Church, paying their tithes, taking their tinctures, and paying for their "courses" - they will continue to have their time and pocketbooks fleeced by G&M out a of a misguided sense of duty to an organization that has nothing but their own self interest in mind. I wish the time and effort could be spent on something more
worthwhile, but there certainly are more harmful organizations out there. I'm sure Shiloh University is very lucrative, since many of the "professors" are volunteers, and tuition looks pretty expensive! Maybe this will help keep the "upward flow" of cash going to G&M for a bit longer. Expensive classes to move up in a religious institution? Straight out of the L. Ron Hubbard playbook when you think about it.

Changedagain (Sept. 18, 2014)
One of my earliest experiences in the walk, after dropping out from college...and living day to day trying to survive financially...was my employment with a congregant who owned/operated a paint business. We painted the exterior of a house John in the vicinity of Redlands. After completing it, and submitting the bill to Gary (who had arranged for the work to done), we were informed during a church service by Gary that we had decided to donate our time and material to John. We were thanked before the congregation. I suppose since both John and Gary were men of God, they had the perception to know that it was in our hearts to forego paying our bills and eating, in favor of the serving the upward flow.

FilthyApron (Nov. 2, 2014)
I'm apart of the much aligned 3rd generation (LOL) so most of those names I recognize but were not around when I was in Colorado. My parents came into the
church in 1971 at Grace Chapel and also attended Church of His Holy Presence in Anaheim. Once my dad was out of the service he was "commissioned" to go to Wynne Arkansas with Brother Bush, The church moved to Memphis TN sometime in I think 1975?? After that stint we moved to Shiloh and I attended Centers of Learning for 2nd and part 3rd grade. I found an old report card that was hysterical no grades or progress reports academically but a boat load of info
on how my independent spirit was a hindrance and how I needed to be educated on becoming part of the upward flow, learn to sing in the spirit and recognize auras. WOW thats a lot to ask of a 7 year old. ANYWAY after surviving Shiloh and the Victory Siege (and yes I remember violent intercession, CODE RED calls on the intercom and 4 square in the sanctuary) scary times. After Shiloh we moved to Colorado and that's when a whole other lifetime of crazy began.

Apostle Dog (Dec 2, 2015)
KBOY I was only at Shiloh three times. I never did the sawmill thing, all I ever did work-wise was a little kitchen duty, so I can't say that I am a real veteran of Shiloh, I was never there in the winter either. I bet that killed them to have to pay you guys minimum wage. I hope you tithed the
rest of it back into the upward flow.

Kboy (December 15, 2015)
My entire Shiloh gig (‘78-’79) was done at the sawmill. Everybody, to my knowledge (350-450 people at any given time), who lived and worked at Shiloh, made $80/mo plus room and board. Somewhere in early ‘79, the state came in and required the sawmill to pay its workers minimum wage ($2.00/hr.), so all of a sudden, the sawmill workers were ‘bank’--we made $80/week, when everyone else was making $80/mo. With no overhead to speak of, we had money to burn. Impact
had a roller-manufacturing operation somewhere in Washington, IA., whose workers lived at Shiloh, but I am not aware if the state caught up with them.

Changedagain (January 19, 2016):
Paleface wrote:
"I'd like to remind everyone that the Living Word has been designated a "cult" by all the major cult experts. It was and is a cult by all the standard criteria. Shiloh University is an on-line bible school founded by this cult. If you pay the tuition to enroll, just know what it is you are signing up for."

Yes, and in this cult there are many fine people with sincere hearts, not predatory in nature. However, they are controlled by the policies of a few people, in service to the 'upward flow", and that is what anyone considering an education at Shiloh University need to recognize. And the fact that it is a sizable investment for one just getting started in adult life.

BenTHare (March 29, 2017)
I came into the walk thinking that I had found a more exciting walk with God. I was vulnerable. I was disappointed with my church experiences and ready for something better. Ultimately, I found myself sinking deeper into my own dark humanity. The walk experience did not liberate me at all. I was being imprisoned. The words from John, sounded liberating, but they turned out
to be the exact opposite. I was hooked, like an addict. After finding my way out, I could not fit into any church. I immersed myself in the business world and some other 'isms, mostly as a distraction. It did not fix the nightmares and anxiety I felt, but it consumed the emptiness to a point. Nothing was repairing the damage, but I knew that I could not go back. In a weak moment,
I did try to go back. Fortunately, I was shunned. Things are much better now for me, but my journey continues. Candidly, I tell you all, that the healing is still a work in progress.

Cloudwatcher (July 21, 2017)
Hi all, guess I missed the conflicts on this board. I will only say, this is for the benefit of people who were injured, some deeply, some not so much. Some of us lost our families. G man is a creep for doing what he is doing--one sick bastard. John could have been a great pastor, and in some ways maybe was, but because of his delusions and deep fear of rejection, he turned and captured the hearts and minds that belonged to others in order to carry on his delusion--he was not a sane man. All well and good he had some good traits that all but disappeared when the wicked witch of the west captured his heart and mind among other things, and the result was catastrophic. Destruction after his death increased when G man and the M proceeded to rape the churches of money, time, and energy--and the real upward flow began--their bank accounts and property attest to that. It is open season to speak of these horrors, voice opinion concerning G man's continued pillage of the pocketbooks and mental abuse--deep darkness--that is occurring. I hear people from U.S.A LW are beginning to move to Brazil--is this the beginning of the end for the states? Keep the board posted on these events--wondering where it will lead? Personally, I
think that it will be all their fault, God left them because they displeased him and is setting up his kingdom in Brazil now because the people failed. Oh--but he will take their money--gladly. That's right G Man--suck every last quarter out of the pockets of those who sacrifice--you despicable creep. And it is okay to say that on this board. Venting is okay and saying what you
think in black and white without sugarcoating is okay. If you don't like it, it would be better to hold that thought-- unless you want to do more harm to the people who are trying to find some sense of what life is really about for them. I know I need it and have had horrendous things to deal with so haven't posted much--but it is there--the questions of why--why did I not see it?
Why didn't I protect my children? It is sick ---you only have one life (resurrection life is a carrot). And most of it is behind me now--

Changedagain (Jan 5, 2018)
acesandates wrote:
"Nobody from "The Walk" coerced us or tried to about anything."
Your experience was rare. Congrats. The Walk I experienced, and many on this board, was filled with coercion--implicit and explicit. I think being told you were going to be killed for not conducting yourself in a certain manner qualifies as coercion.

"We were all advised if you recall,to calculate the cost/risk-benefit. After which we then put our hands to the plow."
The risks were veiled. They were only revealed after a person became immersed into culture. Trust me...if from the outset you were told this movement had 'the Apostle to the Kingdom', there were Nephilim resisting his ministry (among them, his wife), we were to pray for their death (or the death of the spirit moving through them, a distinction many of us struggle with)...and that our acceptance, in practice, depended upon our complete submission to the
authority structure (the practice of 'divine order')...and that many of us would forgo our own financial security by giving to the 'upward flow"...(seek first to serve the apostle)...very few of us would have become involved.

"So I, for one, miss the Apostle, and Brother RD Cronquist, thank them, and I was a nobody, just someone coming to a corrogated sheet metal pole barn with hay on the floor."
Your motivation may have been pure, acesandates. But the motivation of those that used the labor and goodwill of the people was not. All the money that flowed into the accounts of ones like John was not put to the use of building the 'kingdom.' There was certainly a wide disparity between the finances and personal liberty of walk leadership, and the worker bees that populated
the organization.

Larry Bobo (Feb. 13, 2018)
I would be curious to know how the IRS views free church labor and
materials on the various personal properties owned by TLWF leadership. Obviously, there is personal financial benefit that is off the books. Nobody makes much money, but you do get your personal home fixed up as part of the deal - if you can convince your followers that it will make God happy and that they are part of a select few to be even granted such a privilege. At least the
upward flow was a blessing to someone! For the rest of us, "The view never changes unless you're the lead dog!" If you were willing to work, they were certainly willing to take advantage of you and give you a small peak at being in the inner circle in return. Did anyone else ever wonder what it might be like to take a real vacation with your family? Actually, I do know now -
and it’s quite healthy!

Cloudwatcher (Aug. 25, 2018)
We were always told that the shepherd was to serve the sheep (hence love) But in the walk, those were just words, the shepherd in LW was served without
question. It was called the upward flow. So I believe that was what the poem by Kboy was actually saying to us--it was being sarcastic of that -- the walk preached love --love that was all about service to the leader--who was God to the sheep. It was drilled into us. Just sayin…

Kboy (Sep 10, 2018)
The doctrine of the 'upward flow' has had many deleterious effects on the sheep, the worst being classified as expendable, unless deep pockets had earned one a seat at some table regardless of spiritual maturity. This feature alone solidified the hierarchical structure that determined values of individuals based on various ladder rungs. Since the top rungs were populated with heavy
Kool-Aid drinkers with few available slots, nepotism played a large part in who was invited to imbibe. Lower level rung dwellers only had value corresponding to their servitude capabilities, but once they were compromised they were easily discarded, as there were always more applicants ready to fill their shoes in the hopes of climbing a few rungs. This left those who simply warmed the seats without significant contributions to be deemed unworthy of securing a
spot on anybody's calendar, since any self-focus was viewed as contributing to the downward flow. This led to one of the most loving statements in TLW history; "Shut up, sit down, and help me."

dbc (Nov. 2, 2018)
Let’s not forget the origins of this group (please feel free to correct any errors. My memory ain’t what it used to be! ) It was meant to be the restoration of apostolic authority. Inherent in that is a lack of accountability. The only check on abuse in the beginning was created by relationships with other groups. Richard Ross wrote about these five groups that came out of the latter rain movement in his masters thesis. John Stevens’ ’last contact with Bob Mumford whose teachings and organization also reflected submission to shepherding authority meant the beginning of an era when John was surrounded by people who only agreed with him. The finances and church
structures also reflected this new testament model meaning local church corporations were not autonomous but responsive the the flow of authority - but the money flowed the other way. Also there was a deliberate decision to charge for the tapes. To pay five dollars in the 1970s for a
cassette tape was outrageous. JOHN boasted that the church of the living word was the greatest purchaser of blank tapes in Southern California. That was a lot of money. After John died, with the reorganization to Hargrave family ministries it seemed like everything was on steroids. The
upward flow. Designated relationships. Authority with no accountability. As local churches folded their assets were sold and the money returned to the word for the world fund. Plus tithes plus special offerings for apostolic travel. Unless the DNA changes there will be no substantive changes at all. And there are no signs of the DNA changing. The seeds of what we’re seeing now
were there from the very beginning. I’m sure no one intended it to happen, but when the crystal forms and grows it follows the pattern set out by the basic molecular structure. That’s why “you will know them by their fruit.” The fruit is quite apparent now. It would seem the only reasonable response is to walk away. Unfortunately, those who post in this forum give testimony
to the fact that it’s difficult to leave this group without being damaged goods. There will be a whole lot of hurting going on for quite a while.

Aleutian (January 10, 2019)
I recently recalled a time I was volunteering working on ¨G and M´s¨ luxury home on Oahu in Hawaii. It was a hot summer day, and I didn´t bring any sunscreen. I had the nerve to ask for some. After all, I was working for free. Instead of them helping me, they called for their ¨handler¨ at the time to help me. He was quite flustered that I didn´t ask him first and chewed me out, telling me to follow ¨divine order¨. It was a good light-bulb moment for me. After that I said "F%$K this" haha. Another light-bulb moment occurred when I watched the Netflix documentary "Holy Hell". I would highly suggest it to people in this group that are fascinated by the social intricacies of "cultish groups".

Reepicheep (Feb. 28, 2019)
Quote changedagain
“Dissent brings retribution, at least from my experience. The uncomfortable truth is that anyone who considered themselves a ministry during the reign of G & M & R (Gary, Marilyn, Rick) were only kidding themselves. They were merely figureheads...having the appearance of having a say in matters, but actually inconsequential. The way to test this premise,of course, was to express an opinion contrary to the dogma of these leaders, and see what becomes of your
so-called ministry. Walk & TLWF history is littered with so-called 'important' ministries being shunned and eventually pressured out of the fellowship for being at odds with those at the top of the authority chain. The 'upward flow' is what it's been all about.”

Unfortunately, it was always this way. As you said, changed, "Walk & TLWF history is littered with so-called 'important' ministries being shunned and eventually pressured out of the fellowship for being at odds with those at the top of the authority chain." JRS did this if anyone tried to discuss things they saw as unscriptural, or disagreed with him. They bought themselves a
one-way ticket to shunning and nephilim status. And as we all know, apostles are not required to listen to nephilim.

Amos (April 11, 2019)
> The plan for senior housing went nowhere. Was that ever a real thing?>

If they wait long enough there is no need for senior housing, unless that resurrection life thing happens, in which case they won’t need it then either. All those surviving seniors in resurrection bodies can sign billion year contracts like Scientologists do and work for all eternity on Gary’s
houses and other kingdom stuff (maybe even my yacht)!
_____________________________________________________________________________

Meanwhile, critical decisions about the future of Shiloh are being made:
fool me twice wrote:
Another Shiloh update:
[www.kalonanews.com]

I have it from a reliable source: Rick Holbrook is no longer receiving a salary.

HOWEVER, Rick and Lorena were paid a substantial severance package which also makes no sense. People fired for cause don't get severance packages from an employer who is non-complicit in the basis of the firing. That is just my opinion based on working in litigation (employment and family law) for over 20 years. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. But if I ever say I will be happy to see you in court, I will actually know what that means -- to stand in front of a Judge and argue issues, submit evidence, take testimony. I can't do those things now unless I represent myself in some way. Hmmmm....

Onion, I hope that Rick Holbrook is no longer receiving a salary from TLWF. The severance package is a very bad joke already. It would also be interesting to know the disposition of "That Studio". Who does it, and the expensive equipment inside, belong to? Does Rick still party at the Rayen Resort? Drink wine and smoke cigars from the extensive wine cellar? Was offering money actually used to buy all the booze (not just wine) drunk by "apostolic ministries"? What a crock! I do not miss the reek of cigar smoke at church events. I suppose that whatever vices "Christ in the flesh" enjoyed automatically became the most awesome thing for everyone to do, unfortunately. Although, sheep had to pay for their own vices. More upward flow?

Changed, wow! Lots and lots about the perverted "upward flow" doctrine. The first time I remember this being mentioned at all was in the sixties when John Robert Stevens still wore horn-rimmed glasses, suits and ties (and sometimes clerical robes). He was still married to his first wife, Martha, (although he was already having select people pray for her death). The message was from Isaiah 2:2 "It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it..." RSV

This was used as an example of the flow of gravity being reversed in that the "flow" was "upward". I don't know if the expression began there. But that 80-90% of the money coming into local churches was allocated for Gary and Marilyn Hargrave is a grave injustice (pun intended). It's little wonder that local churches in the fellowship were folding right and left by the 1990s. It's a classic case of greed and abuse eventually destroying the very institution that was paying the way of evil leaders. Upward flow, indeed!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2019 07:08AM by Reepicheep.

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was offering money actually used to buy all the booze
> (not just wine) drunk by "apostolic ministries"? What
> a crock! I do not miss the reek of cigar smoke at
> church events.
>
> I suppose that whatever vices "Christ in the flesh"
> enjoyed automatically became the most awesome
> thing for everyone to do, unfortunately. Although,
> sheep had to pay for their own vices. More upward
> flow?
>

There is a new School of Prophets teaching, recently uncovered, that teaches the average "sheep" to manifest wine and other expensive spirits using only water much like Jesus did at the wedding at Cana. Sadly, there is no current teaching about how to create cigars.

It's a scriptural solution.

There is no place in the Kingdom for such sarcasm.

Reepicheep:
It's little wonder that local churches in the fellowship were folding right and left by the 1990s. It's a classic case of greed and abuse eventually destroying the very institution that was paying the way of evil leaders.

And yet, as recent as a year ago, Gary was pointing out the supposed lack of dedication within the fellowship & implying that he alone was taking responsibility for the 'Word of God.' The greed combined with the demeaning attitude toward the fellowship was/is a horribly toxic mix.


excerpt from "Together, We Drink This Cup"

It is not enough that I alone drink the cup the Lord is asking of me, but there must be a people who enter into the same commitment to drink this cup. It is time for each one of us to take responsibility for the Word of God over us.."

fromsouthchicago Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Re: Larry Bobo's post,
>
> If you examine cults and cult leaders, you'll
> often times notice that cult leaders have a
> tendency to co-mingle their personal and
> organizational funds. In other words ... they're
> not all that careful and concerned about the law
> and the IRS when it comes to them using church
> property and money for personal gain.
>
> I suspect that TLWF is the same when it comes to
> this. In fact family stories suggest that Marilyn
> was constantly self-dealing when it came to TLWF
> funds and property. I was told that you all were
> paying and paying for her life of luxury and
> ability to do as she pleased.
>
> So ... this is could be an avenue for you, the
> former members of TLWF, take down Gary, Rick and
> anyone else who has been self-dealing, abusing,
> etc. members.
>
> And by the way, dare Gary to sue anyone of you or
> a group of you. Remember in these kinds of civil
> suits you get to depose them, you get their
> records, you get their and the organization's tax
> returns and access to their financial records and
> bank statements. You get their emails. Etc.
>
> One more thing since the CLW started in LA, there
> has to be one or more ex-members with substantial
> financial resources to hire a good law firm.
>
> And if possible, I'd start any legal action
> (criminal or civil) in CA. From all that I've
> seen, Iowa is either too complacent or too corrupt
> to be of any assistance. Before I forget it, the
> Foreign corrupt practices act may apply to
> property and funds outside of the US.
>
> So when you finally engage with them, you won't
> just have a battle on your hands, you'll have a
> war. So be ready. Initially they'll likely come at
> you extremely hard, pulling every dirty trick that
> they have. However, if you can outlast them I
> think you'll win because the longer it goes on,
> the more that will come out, the more defections
> you'll get, etc. And they'll collapse like the
> house of cards that they are.
>
>
>
> larry bobo Wrote:
>
> ...
> >
> > If a facility were to be sold, the money would
> > have to go to another church within the
> fellowship
> > (e.g. Hargrave Family Ministries) and could not
> go
> > to anyone personally. Directors were not to
> use
> > their position for personal profit - it had to
> be
> > beneficial to the organization. The only
> > exception I can recall was the use of members
> to
> > remodel the Director's personal residence and
> then
> > the increased property value would be channeled
> > back to the organization upon sale of the
> property
> > – or something like that. It’s a bit fuzzy now.

BTW, I hope the dissolution of TLWF doesn't have the unintended consequence of further enriching Hargrave Ministries. It will be interesting to see where the proceeds from the sale of church assets end up. Frankly, I'm not optimistic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2019 11:35PM by changedagain.