Onion, I read the Marzoni article. Will have a comment later

Typer - Yep got it and already replied. Thanks.

Welcome typer and others that have recently lent their voices to the forum. I'm still amazed that in spite of the fact we all left at different times and for different reasons, there are so many common threads in our experience.

Richard M. I appreciate you sharing. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I had wondered where Marti and Rick's father was in all this. Just another example of things you didn't ask about. I'm very glad that you have been able to rebuild your life.

There's one comment you made that I have mulled over again and again.

"During the last two years of our marriage, and ultimately my wasted time at trying to save it by attending more church meetings at her insistence, Marilyn directly expounded on the status of men in the church as being useful only for the 'spiritual leadership' of the family."

Having been under Marilyn tutelage, makes me think how her view of "men in the church" has formed my own view.

Thanks, Onion, for sharing the link to Girls, Turn it off. I saw it on FB, but at the time I just couldn't listen to it. I'm listening to it now, but only 5 minutes at a time. That's the best I can do. :-)

kbyrne Wrote:
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> Welcome typer and others that have recently lent
> their voices to the forum. I'm still amazed that
> in spite of the fact we all left at different
> times and for different reasons, there are so many
> common threads in our experience.

Yes

Kbyrne and Richard M,, that's quite a quote about men in the church. Between that and "I'm pretty anti-woman" from Girl's Turn It Off, it sounds like MH didn't like people much.

Reeo, I listened to the girls tape and, sorry, but I was laughing so hard I had to refresh it.When I have a little time I'll say more, but she had no idea how to explain what Mother Nature built in between men and women . . .

I can't wait to hear you say more Richard M!

Richard M. Wrote:
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> Reeo, I listened to the girls tape and, sorry, but
> I was laughing so hard I had to refresh it.When I
> have a little time I'll say more, but she had no
> idea how to explain what Mother Nature built in
> between men and women . . .

I never listened to the above audio, but I would probably listen to the following version...in part, because I am drawn to laughter:

"Girls, Turn it Off'
by Marilyn H.
Commentary by Richard M.

I will try to answer some of the following comments and questions by filling in some of the past with Marilyn and with observations of the “Girl's Turn It Off” tape. But I’m afraid it may cause a few disconnects as well as more questions.

First, there’s so many personally involved here that I might try to explain why I find the tape humorous while others may not. I’m essentially an outsider who though experience finds a lot tragedy and social misfortune humorous by its causation. I recall "An Essay on Comedy" by Merideth? . . .who explained in part that, "It will at any rate hardly be questioned that it is unwholesome for men and women to see themselves as they are if they are no better than they should be; and they will not, when they have improved in manners, care much to see themselves as they once were."

(Reep, I listened to the girls tape and, sorry, but I was laughing so hard I had to refresh it. When I have a little time I'll say more, but she had no idea how to explain what Mother Nature built in between men and women . . .)
(Kbyrne and Richard M,, that's quite a quote about men in the church. Between that and "I'm pretty anti-woman" from Girl's Turn It Off, it sounds like MH didn't like people much.)
(Onion: I can't wait to hear you say more Richard M!)
( changedagain: I never listened to the above audio, but I would probably listen to the following version...in part, because I am drawn to laughter:
"Girls, Turn it Off'
by Marilyn H.
Commentary by Richard M.)

Second, I should clarify that bringing back memories of my past and commenting on things new to me, for me, is like reading some novel that I’ve read before then being asked to critique the characters . . . . Of the bulk of the 17some years I knew Marilyn, 14 in marriage, things were more than fine. At least from all I knew. It’s now like writing about two different people, Marilyn old and new. The voice on the tape isn’t at all like Marilyn in my past. She was so careful and hesitant in choosing her words on tape so as not to offend whom she was obviously trying in the same breath to protect, that it was just gibberish. If it made any sense at all, there had to be someone in the room or meant for targeted others who had already been put on notice of some perceived recalcitrance. I had found it humorous because she had obviously been coached in how, what and what not to say, then still unsure of how it would play.

The Blix house? Sorry, but you mix a lot of unsure young people with others seeking guidance or not, and with a woman who convinced her mother to leave her father over absolutely nothing but a misquoted and misunderstood scripture, and who overtly used her own sexuality and looks in attempt to fill her own emptiness among men she in long discussions actually despised but overcame out of necessity. Then she attempts to transfer that unstated guilt to youngsters as if “flirting” and girlish wiles were unnatural and that men were just willing dolts. Silly. Does hypocrite fit? Absent effective coercion, blackmail, lying promises and the underlying need to garner the “flock’s purse strings,” normal men and women, young and old, predominantly work out their relationships quite well. Leave ‘em alone. Mistakes are the learning blocks to a better life.

I wrote the following two paragraphs some years ago. They might help explain my perceptions of Marilyn’s evolution to reality’s exclusion, who knows:

“Mother Nature infected the human race with the tools, emotions and mysteries of procreation but neglected to provide a book of rules for every possible situation and for the moral mind-set of those involved. So, laws and rules were instigated by the more civilized for personal protection and self-worth of all. Moreover, it has been more than sufficiently documented that women and men’s proclivities and propensities concerning what is wanted and what isn’t, respectively, in the sexual arena, can be far apart, the cues and nuances of romance appearing an advancing mystery until openly resolved by the involved parties. That is, mostly the personal cues of no, mean no, but sometimes yes, means no, too, commonsense about a possible future being an escaping human commodity . . . .

“Where did all this mistreatment of women (in the church) come from? Well, absent the disparity in size and strength . . . . . some people being hypocrites have forever supported loosening moral boundaries as their core premise of social freedom while decrying things like the Ten Commandments as being unfit for government or personal guidance of morality, i.e.,, unfettered abortion, gay marriage, homosexual conduct, etc. Yet, America was founded on Christian principles whether or not one subscribes to the religiousness of it. Although sanitized of religious script, these principles were nevertheless enshrined as the basis of our Constitution and Bill of Rights and form the core morality in our laws. Just follow the original “advice” . . . still, humans were saddled with the urge for procreation and yet were not fully fortified with an ounce of prevention . . . . . not an excuse, just an observation . . .”

In the end, for me, men and women were meant to supplant one another, that is, if you’re lucky enough to find your other half. Alone, they can’t be equal because they weren’t created the same in the first place. I suppose you could say they’re equal but in different ways.

The search for true love and self-fulfillment is Mother Nature's cruelest hoax on the creatures of an ever eroding and renewing world. But nevertheless, a hoax of sustainability for our evolutionary existence. And proof of the interconnectivity of all life, while in another way still a curse for those under its "spell" in the fleeting moments we can experience it and for the short duration that we can bare it.

Some of us frail humans never understand that when we love or strive to love one another, the secular kind, our love can transcend the mistakes and transgressions of the other, for those errors are the minutia that makes the whole person, and are therefore worthy of both love and forgiveness. Someone of far greater insight once said that opening the birdcage only assures that the bird will return once its flight is truly and fully flown and darkness once again descends on the scene. Or something like that.

In spite of all the rhetoric to the contrary, the opposite of love isn't hate. It's nothing, no feelings at all. Once that point is surpassed, little can be done about it except to start all over, either with the same person, another or something else always just out of reach . . . . . . .

It has been a long time since I have posted. I have been wondering if I had been vocal back in the 1980's if others that have since been hurt in the same manner as I was would not have been. The thought came to me that without social media I would have been silenced. The horrible treatment of so many and the total disregard for others has been a constant pattern. They shall be known by the fruit of their actions, and that fruit is broken and damaged people that are running around now confused and hurt. I have so appreciated the support I see here for each other. It in itself can be a healing balm. When my husband and I were spit up they talked to him but not to me. When we decided to get married only a handful of our friends were there. My best girl friend was told that if she still wanted to be a part of TLW she could not be there. The best part of this is that we made a choice to follow what was real to us and listen to the voice we heard not theirs. In all the years since our anniversary has been bittersweet, not as joyful as it should be. I was robbed of the wedding I had always dreamed of having. This is the first year our anniversary was fun. It is interesting that many of the marriages that occurred that year did not make it. Looking back I realize that not having a word to get married was really a blessing in disguise. A lot of folks when they found out we were married asked me what the word over our marriage was and I told then our love is stronger than anything that can come against us. Funny how I felt I could not tell them what had happened, however it was the truth our love was stronger than anything that could be thrown against us. We were not Plan B as many told us. It has been a journey to realize that it did not matter if we had their approval and that they were wrong when they told me that I was not good enough for him.That realization helps begin the healing. Healing has finally begun for me and a lot of it is from reading here. Thank all of you. You are all in my heart, and I know we are all helping each other.