To: Changed again, Reepicheep, Prettyboy, Onion and other long time posters,

Thank you for your courage and fighting for us all these years, the ones of us that thought the leadership had the same heart as us worker bees. The leadership taught us to believe that by disciplining us, and we were told being disciplined was reassurance of God's love. I now know that is not true. When God shows us we need to make a change, He always provides the answer with the need and it is always positive. God is good and He never shames us. A good mommy and daddy always build up and praise their children and don't make them feel like bad failures when they need to learn something new or make a change in thinking. We just bought two 10 week old puppies and love the unconditional love there.

I do think some leaders have had a heart for the people.

Mistake to earlier post on top part of page 847. Our first son was born the end of 1980, not 1978. Sorry for my dumb older brain.

Prettyboy wrote:
“richard m,
“someday i hope to meet you, albeit i am in iowa and you in calif, i have so relished your posts over the last month or so. i read pain but not bitterness, clarity but confusion and a total sense of who you were all those years ago and who you are today. i think had you and i met years ago or even tomorrow, the embrace would be the same. your contribution to this forum is unparalleled.
thank you”

typer wrote:
“ . . . As far as giving our spirits to Marilyn, I always believed my spirit belonged to God the Father, and I believe He is very jealous over what is His. I believe He hates competition for what belongs to Him, if I read the ten commandments right about idolatry. . . . .”
“ . . . When we moved to Palmer Lake I was ‘assigned’ a designated relationship which seemed OK at first. . . .”

It seems my first thought when thinking to post or reply to another, is that no matter how truthful or careful I might be, it’s like tiptoeing through a minefield of confliction knowing that sooner or later even one misstep is one too many. Still . . . . .after catching up on these last few pages and then throwing trepidation aside, the overview prompts me to write. So, thanks for the comments . . . Being here in Texas for 14 years gives one a renewed vision of freedom that everyone should experience, not that California isn’t the hub of the Western Cultural World (read, joke). But never having had a leader try to “assigned me a designated relationship,” I can’t imagine how any rational “leader” would, unless for some illegitimate reason.

“As far as giving our spirits to Marilyn?” Sorry, but from what little I know about it, why would anyone need a go-between to further a personal relationship with “God?” I’ve read through the Bible more than once, as well as other religions’ texts, and I can’t recall that the names Stevens, Marilyn or Hargrave were ever mentioned. If I’m wrong about that, just leave me satisfied in my over-educated ignorance . . . .

Regards,

Dick

Richard M. Wrote:

> “As far as giving our spirits to Marilyn?” Sorry,
> but from what little I know about it, why would
> anyone need a go-between to further a personal
> relationship with “God?” I’ve read through the
> Bible more than once, as well as other religions’
> texts, and I can’t recall that the names Stevens,
> Marilyn or Hargrave were ever mentioned.

You are correct.

Is Bruce Larson still aligned with Gary? If so, it would be nice if they just backed off for once, and let people decide how to lives their own lives. But I guess that would be asking them to do something that is completely contrary to their nature. They must assume God's role.
Pathetic.

The link to the 1980 tape "Girls Turn It Off" was just posted again on facebook. Here is the link and my comment. If the link doesn't come through and you would like to hear this message that is a rambling definition of misogyny in the church, let me know and I can point you to it in a PM:


[bit.ly]


The pattern of blaming victims, or just blaming the female and never considering the male involved, has roots in really egregious systems in Europe, especially Ireland, and probably hidden in many places in the U.S. As I watched a documentary about the "workhouses" in Ireland where women were sent who were pregnant, who had been raped even if not pregnant, who were vigins but acted frisky around boys, who were required to give their children up for adoption, and who were interred in these workhouses for decades and often for life, all I could think about were the nightmares people in the walk culture went through when they had no voice (no one would listen), the women were always at fault, abusers (even child sexual abusers) were just sent off to other churches (where they could find a new source of prey), or they were hidden, protected, and even facilitated. Repeatedly.

Is being told to have an abortion that different from stealing a newly born baby from its mom because she wasn't married? Is being told never to have children because it would distract you from your work for the church leaders, much different? Is being told who to marry, who to divorce, when to marry and divorce, any less control than a workhouse? The differences in the extreme examples probably have much more to do with a country's laws (no separation of church and state in Ireland) and the power of the religious leaders.

I didn't see anything wrong with this tape when it first came out. I listened to it recently and I was (literally) physically ill for 3 days.

Onion, the link seems to work. I just can't listen to it. I will barf. Seriously.

I remember getting in trouble because a few guys submitted wanting to date me back at the time that this message was released. I must have "put my spirit on them", according to this tape. I mean, that's the only reason that a young man would ever be attracted to a young woman, according to Marilyn Hargrave. I believe I am correct in stating that she definitely put more than her spirit on more than one married man during her reign.

I just read some comments from younger women on an FB post about this topic who said that they never bothered reporting someone in the church for sexually abusing them, because they knew that nothing would happen to the abuser. They also knew that they themselves would be blamed. One of those younger women was EIGHT years old at the time. Let that sink in for a minute.

Reepicheep Wrote:

> I just read some comments from younger women on an
> FB post about this topic who said that they never
> bothered reporting someone in the church for
> sexually abusing them, because they knew that
> nothing would happen to the abuser. They also knew
> that they themselves would be blamed. One of
> those younger women was EIGHT years old at
> the time. Let that sink in for a minute.

I sent Onion a private message but not sure if I did it right. Onion, please let me know if you got my reply.

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sexual abuse was more than just a rumor in TLWF.
> I was personally abused by a gay pastor as well as
> a woman everyone would know who was around in the
> 70’s. She wrote many of the worship songs sung
> during that era. I was 15 and both the man the
> woman were in their 30’s. I would never suggest
> their actions were directed by the leadership,
> however, the atmosphere was so toxic that many
> things existed under the radar that I do not now
> see in a healthier church. Hopefully, my
> perception is better in my 60’s than it was in my
> teens. In hindsight, how did I as a 15 year old,
> and my teen friends, know this “pastor” was gay
> and John, who ordained him with his great
> revelation, not have a clue. He was much more
> than a sincere gay man looking for answers – he
> was an evil predator.
>
> The wounds many received in TLWF were certainly
> not limited to G&M, but on the other hand, they
> certainly directed the culture. I remember trying
> to figure out why my local shepherds treated
> people so harshly until I had my first discipline
> experience with Apco. It seemed every other word
> started with f..king this and that. No wonder
> they acted the way they did. Those who have been
> abused, abuse. I heard stories of the way Apco
> was treated by G&M and could only imagine how G&M
> were treated by “God” – especially the god who
> wants to kill, steal, and destroy that they seemed
> to serve. Anyone remember John's first encounter
> with "Jesus" in Holy Jim Canyon? It was not to
> bring life.

Reep - All I can say is holy f---ing hell. 8 years old. HFH.