Onion Wrote:
> A lot of people questioned Rick's conduct from
> what I've heard those who made their protests
> known to G&M were soon banished and ostracized.
> And more frequently, people learned that nothing
> would change if they said anything. Time and
> again ministries would try to convey the peoples'
> message to PLEASE not allow Rick to return to his
> place of "rulership" after one of his affairs and
> remarriage - but G&M never listened and always
> reinstated the little king. And the sickest part
> of that equation is most people were upset by his
> affairs and remarriages but very few knew he had
> molested numerous other women of varying ages.
> G&M were the only ones who knew everything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2019 01:52AM by changedagain.

Quote
changedagain
Dissent brings retribution, at least from my experience. The uncomfortable truth is that anyone who considered themselves a ministry during the reign of G & M & R (Gary, Marilyn, Rick) were only kidding themselves. They were merely figureheads...having the appearance of having a say in matters, but actually inconsequential. The way to test this premise,of course, was to express an opinion contrary to the dogma of these leaders, and see what becomes of your so-called ministry. Walk & TLWF history is littered with so-called 'important' ministries being shunned and eventually pressured out of the fellowship for being at odds with those at the top of the authority chain. The 'upward flow' is what it's been all about.

Unfortunately, it was always this way. As you said, changed, "Walk & TLWF history is littered with so-called 'important' ministries being shunned and eventually pressured out of the fellowship for being at odds with those at the top of the authority chain." JRS did this if anyone tried to discuss things they saw as unscriptural, or disagreed with him. They bought themselves a one-way ticket to shunning and nephilim status. And as we all know, apostles are not required to listen to nephilim.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2019 05:45AM by Reepicheep.

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote
changedagain
> Dissent brings retribution, at least from my
> experience. The uncomfortable truth is that anyone
> who considered themselves a ministry during the
> reign of G & M & R (Gary, Marilyn, Rick) were only
> kidding themselves. They were merely
> figureheads...having the appearance of having a
> say in matters, but actually inconsequential. The
> way to test this premise,of course, was to express
> an opinion contrary to the dogma of these leaders,
> and see what becomes of your so-called ministry.
> Walk & TLWF history is littered with so-called
> 'important' ministries being shunned and
> eventually pressured out of the fellowship for
> being at odds with those at the top of the
> authority chain. The 'upward flow' is what it's
> been all about.
>

>
> Unfortunately, it was always this way. As you
> said, changed, "Walk & TLWF history is littered
> with so-called 'important' ministries being
> shunned and eventually pressured out of the
> fellowship for being at odds with those at the top
> of the authority chain." JRS did this if anyone
> tried to discuss things they saw as unscriptural,
> or disagreed with him. They bought themselves a
> one-way ticket to shunning and nephilim status.
> And as we all know, apostles are not required to
> listen to nephilim.

I know that its not a popular topic but there are two sides to everything.
While G & M where by all accounts abusive, dont we have to ask ourselves why some strove much harder than others to be included. By included I mean be a part of the organization at a level high enough to be abused by G & M directly. I know a lot of cult members and not all of them had the drive and desire to elevate themselves in the "ministry." I guess what I am trying to say in a kind and sensitive way is that in my mind trying to elevate yourself above the other cult members and join the leadership ranks of a cult, comes at a price. The leaders I knew personally were certainly intelligent and perceptive enough to have known this. The pioneers take the arrows right? If you put yourself out front then you become a target. All that being said, if anyone was drafted or forced to participate then thats different. Just wondering why there seems to be so much lamenting of the good people in leadership that were abused and less focus on the congregation at large whom were ALL abused.

Onion I have to push back a little on your "pondering" post. I am sympathetic to the plight of the people that were put in legal jeopardy by participating in the management and leadership. I am sure some knew what they were getting in to and some had no clue. Either way, when the realization came that they were being asked to break the law, they had a choice. The choice may have been A) break the law or B) pack your shit, grab your family and run like hell, but they had a choice. I haven't heard of anyone having a gun held to their head. In fact its clear that some have enjoyed great financial gain. I dont want any (more) innocent people to be put in jeopardy or suffer the punishment that should be owned by GH. I do want the people in leadership now that have been made aware and yet persist in assisting with the criminal enterprise to be punished. Its time to walk away or go down with the ship.

Tmason -

I’m with you a bit on the caution that there is a need to go easy on the acting leadership. Dave and I had many times that someone tried to pull us into the leadership or some kind of “it” group. We just couldn’t buy into the requirement of laying aside what we had been taught about right and wrong for the supposed greater purpose. I was “put over” one of the first girls house that I lived in in the early 70’s. I came home early one weekend from the feast to find one of the roommates in bed with her boyfriend and was directed to tell her she would have to move out. I felt the burden of being her judge and jury for years and always regretted the way I treated her at that time. I knew then I was not cut out to be one of those “put in authority”. I hated the cavalier way the sheep were discussed during shepherds meetings. It takes a lot to walk away from power and choose love over position. It’s unfortunate that the tlw culture promoted and required a blind faith from the leadership. JRS, Marilyn, Gary -demanded a people that would look the other way or be ok assisting in tasks without the whole story, or with hidden agendas. I’m not sure how to think about all of it. They were duped, but still hold some accountability.

Well, maybe we ladies need to start picketing the hereafter in these various religions so that we too are granted 72 virgin young men. I mean, after all, equality is equality.

(Kidding!)

I recently heard that some of the leaders who announced their immediate decision back in October/November to step down are now reinventing reality by saying they were being forced out.

Yeah? By who? Your conscience? Sheesh.

I guess many people from the old leadership squad continue to think we are really stupid and if they repeat their lies often enough, maybe a little louder each time, then they become true.

Ain't gonna happen.

TMason - Thanks for continuing what I consider a very worthy discussion.

I believe there were and are many in roles of responsibility and perhaps in ministry leadership now that the rest of the bunch has "stepped down" who really believed what they were told. I believe in my own heart and I believe the status of the law says that agreement obtained thru deception and fraud, is no agreement. Some leaders were drunk on the heady wine of position. There is no question. And, I believe at least most of the time, those leaders were probably part of much of the wrongdoing. I believe I could make a list if I sat and thought about it. And you are right, some of them prospered greatly both financially and in personal ego stroking.

In reminiscing with various people over the last year, it's so interesting to hear the stories of people who were shepherds but not in a big out front flashy way, and then they were given a boost into the stratosphere position achieved by having Marilyn or Gary elevate you from the pulpit and often directly and personally. Each person I have heard about became so mean. I don't have fancy words for that. I keep hearing stories of just plain, nasty and mean people tearing other people apart. I've been raising issues lately about ministries kicked out and shunned but my GOD - the number of congregants and sheep that have been RUINED in the process is almost more than any of us can probably bear.

I am going to see if I can make a list and when I do I will post it and then we can discuss it. As I have said, I like naming names.

that little red flag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tmason -
>
> I’m with you a bit on the caution that there is a
> need to go easy on the acting leadership. Dave and
> I had many times that someone tried to pull us
> into the leadership or some kind of “it” group. We
> just couldn’t buy into the requirement of laying
> aside what we had been taught about right and
> wrong for the supposed greater purpose. I was “put
> over” one of the first girls house that I lived in
> in the early 70’s. I came home early one weekend
> from the feast to find one of the roommates in bed
> with her boyfriend and was directed to tell her
> she would have to move out. I felt the burden of
> being her judge and jury for years and always
> regretted the way I treated her at that time. I
> knew then I was not cut out to be one of those
> “put in authority”. I hated the cavalier way the
> sheep were discussed during shepherds meetings. It
> takes a lot to walk away from power and choose
> love over position. It’s unfortunate that the tlw
> culture promoted and required a blind faith from
> the leadership. JRS, Marilyn, Gary -demanded a
> people that would look the other way or be ok
> assisting in tasks without the whole story, or
> with hidden agendas. I’m not sure how to think
> about all of it. They were duped, but still hold
> some accountability.

I know that on some level we were all duped. I also know that wether or not the leaders that were elevated by G & M knew the whole plan and story or not they were adults and knew right from wrong and kind from mean. They knew the difference between love and hate and they chose hate and contempt too many times to garner my sympathy.

Onion Wrote:

>
> In reminiscing with various people over the last
> year, it's so interesting to hear the stories of
> people who were shepherds but not in a big out
> front flashy way, and then they were given a boost
> into the stratosphere position achieved by having
> Marilyn or Gary elevate you from the pulpit and
> often directly and personally. Each person I have
> heard about became so mean. I don't have fancy
> words for that. I keep hearing stories of just
> plain, nasty and mean people tearing other people
> apart.

Part of the trade off in aspiring to be a ministry close to G & M, is a certain personality change. If you happen to kind/considerate by nature, you are likely to be rebuked...and then at a certain point you will have to decide whether adopting a nasty disposition is worth the elevated status. I recall ministry through the years where those holding positions of authority were chastised by Gary (in front of the congregation) for not being hard enough on the "sheep." Ministry to Matt W. during a valley service in the 90's was one of them, Gary saying (in essence) he needed to kick some ass. A pastor I was close to in Redlands (Bob F.) was rebuked by Gary for not focusing on being a radical prophet, and instead putting too much emphasis on the "family spirit"--a theme JRS was emphasizing at the time (just before he became sick). He was asked to leave a year later. I did talk to him after that ministry, and he knew his days were numbered... since he had no intent of changing who he was. And then Marilyn telling my wife in early 90's to "kill" me since I wasn't being obedient enough (during the 'kill the male spirit' phase). Anyway, there was quite a bit of grooming of potential "ministries" to take on the harsh attitudes of G & M if they expected to get close to them...and some, to their credit, never paid that price.

p.s. FSLC, who hasn't posted here for some time, would completely relate to this theme. I do hope he returns at some point to the forum. He always had wise and direct way of expressing things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2019 02:01AM by changedagain.

Note: After Jeff P. left the South Gate church in the early 90's, my wife and I were asked by Statton to help fill in the void he left with the young adults in the church. I recall at one point Scott M. coming to the church, and relaying a message to me that God 'meant business' with the younger generation. Apparently a teen in TLWF was hit by a train and died...and somehow (it was insinuated) it was the result of the teen not being obedient. It made no sense to me. Anyway, he wanted me to convey to our group that God wasn't messing around, using this story to make the point. I ignored it.