NancyO, Regarding "Orange County," criminal records, etc., it would be a complicated course to achieve what you ask from out of state. Absent locating a willing attorney experienced in like matters and maybe with an ax to grind on his or her own, there are now on-line sites I've used that specialize in finding criminal records and locating people. But it's hit or miss. If there aren't formal documents on file and only personal communications, but if it's of a dire necessity, a good private investigator might be a successful way to go. Costs may be prohibitive . . . I would opine that DUI arrests, convictions and related documents are public records if not sealed by the court. Without more specifics, that's about the best I can do.

As for Stevens sweettalking the police, anything is possible, but unlikely. It's more likely he paid something for them and was then successful in presenting a false story to cover it up, only to gain a more protectorate image for the "flock." His one open and obvious proclivity.

But good luck, and if I may, tell your son I believe it's always better in the light of a new day,

Dick

--

dirtybrushes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Richard M. I am very grateful for the honesty and
> the time you have poured into disclosing all of
> this. It's truly time that your story be heard. I
> know this sounds like your typical confirmation
> bias, but I did always feel something fishy about
> Marilyn and Gary and the whole mystique that
> surrounded Marilyn, suggesting that she was the
> pinnacle of how a woman should be, to which we
> should all strive to attain. It sounds like, in
> the skillful hands of the "Apostle," she became
> the exact converse of that which she preached! All
> of this is immediately very freeing to me, but I
> have a suspicion that it will penetrate layers of
> memory as time goes on, and it will liberate me
> from things I can't even begin to imagine right
> now! Thank you.

dirtybrushes, this may nit be exactly on point, but I never thought much about putting labels on how people confronted their mortality or spiritual life until in college required to study and be tested on the world's major religions. But it was long after our divorce, my remarriage and writing a book that if any formal label ever came close to my wondering thoughts about it, I must be something of a secular humanist. That is, ascribing to the Christian ethic and the tenants of the Ten Commandments, but not to the religiousness of either.
For some insight maybe for others, and an explanation for why I never succumbed to the "cult-ness" of Stevens' ideal church while Marilyn embraced it, my favorite poem has been Invictus:

“Invictus”

OUT of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

---

Quote
Richard M.

“Invictus”

OUT of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

This poem by William Ernest Henley is so inspiring, especially considering that he wrote it while in the hospital with a very serious illness. It reminds me of my father, who was a very strong, moral person, but not religious. In his words, he was "not a joiner". It is an amazing representation of where many of us find ourselves on this side of the cult experience, finally the master of our own fate. Thank you for posting this, Richard M.

Ponderings...

There are far too many people who can be viewed as guilty -- but only by association. The leadership's method of being very calculated, carefully planned and intentional in everything they did, can be very alarming.

Almost every one of us who were in this cult was a slave. People were placed on Boards of Directors without ever being advised what the legal consequences for those roles really were, or might be. Ministries were never advised of their duty to report child abuse and neglect -- or even who mandated reporters really were. Anyone who is in a role that routinely has them involved with children, even a volunteer, is either a mandated or suggested reporter. Clergy are mandated reporters. There is a slim exception for clergy who were given information in confidence in the form of a confession from the perpetrator. There is no exception for a clergy person who learns of the abuse from a third party or a victim -- or who suspects a problem. Suspected abuse must also be reported.

When you are an overseer or on the Board of a nonprofit and actions are taken which could trigger an action by the IRS, even if you refused to participate in the decision, you may be held personally liable for the action. The protection against liability can only come if your opposition to a decision was made "out loud" (i.e. openly in writing or in a meeting) and there is a record of the dissent. Seriously, who EVER felt they could lodge a dissent to anything G&M wanted to do? And even if you felt a dissent, people probably all believed that since 1992 the ApCo i.e. G&M really, were the bottom line and could do anything they wanted.

There continue to be faithful, smart, responsible people who are standing fast in their responsibilities for the corporations because they want to protect the people and what people have given for. It becomes a problem, at the very least it is a big problem in my heart and in my "ponderings," that some of the best people on earth can continue to be in jeopardy for decisions they would have opposed if they could have. The IRS holds people liable unless there is proof they OPPOSED a decision. Gee, I wonder why that point wasn't emphasized on behalf of the people who continue in jeopardy.

There are criminal consequences for failing to report child abuse if you are a mandated reporter. Was anyone told there are FREE classes given online by the State of California that teach you how to detect abuse and neglect, how to report it, and what can happen if you fail to report if you are mandated. It would have been nice if those in the walk were ever given an idea to look into their own legal consequences in this area. Instead, people like G&M had legal people (including me when I was a law student) scurrying around to do reasearch to support the belief that ministries in our church were not required to report. Well, guess what. They were. Did G&M tell people they didn't have to report? (probably) Was training ever offered? (not that I have heard) Was there ever even the slightest alert that, gee, maybe you should find out if by following your Apostolic Fathering Ministry, you might be committing a crime? From everything I have heard since last August when a lot of us starting comparing notes, it never occurred to people to question the leaders i.e. G&M.

A lot of people questioned Rick's conduct from what I've heard those who made their protests known to G&M were soon banished and ostracized. And more frequently, people learned that nothing would change if they said anything. Time and again ministries would try to convey the peoples' message to PLEASE not allow Rick to return to his place of "rulership" after one of his affairs and remarriage - but G&M never listened and always reinstated the little king. And the sickest part of that equation is most people were upset by his affairs and remarriages but very few knew he had molested numerous other women of varying ages. G&M were the only ones who knew everything.

I am worried that good people are going to get in trouble. I am worried that perpetrators of wrongdoing are going to skip away to wonderland - or Disneyland as the case may be.

CREDIBILITY: Please have self-respect and honor your own credibility. Don't repeat other peoples' stories as fact unless you have checked for truth and accuracy -- or at least qualify what you say by admitting it is someone else's story and you are just giving your opinion. If you heard something but have no personal knowledge of the truth of the information, if you feel you need to pass on the information, include the info that you don't know if it's true. Protect your own credibility at the very least during this time.

Still pondering ... and still worrying like someone's Auntie. Hard habit to break.

Onion,

Good advice. However, in my sorted experience, unless self-enlightened by events and the wisdom and maturity of age, successfully encouraging those still driven by “faith” to recognize and break from false tenants and criminal acts and report their own acquiescence is like contemplating the space between Mars and Jupiter . . . . while it may not satiate a righteous apatite to fully cleanse the “church organizations” of all misdeeds and expose and report the guilty, and thereby provide the light toward a truly “Christian” environment, even the fear of exposure alone is a strong conviction of the past and an operant, correcting condemnation of its cause . . . I would say that these public pages have shown more credibility than what its detractors could ever defend, lawsuits, in court or not . . .

Regards,

Dick

Onion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Seriously, who EVER felt they could
> lodge a dissent to anything G&M wanted to do? And
> even if you felt a dissent, people probably all
> believed that since 1992 the ApCo i.e. G&M really,
> were the bottom line and could do anything they
> wanted.

Dissent brings retribution, at least from my experience. The uncomfortable truth is that anyone who considered themselves a ministry during the reign of G & M & R (Gary, Marilyn, Rick) were only kidding themselves. They were merely figureheads...having the appearance of having a say in matters, but actually inconsequential. The way to test this premise,of course, was to express an opinion contrary to the dogma of these leaders, and see what becomes of your so-called ministry. Walk & TLWF history is littered with so-called 'important' ministries being shunned and eventually pressured out of the fellowship for being at odds with those at the top of the authority chain. The 'upward flow' is what it's been all about.

p.s. I still do not believe that God transported John into the future (from 1972 to 1979) to witness the coming Kingdom...on a day in which John was spending quality time with his girlfriend. Yes, I know that with God all things are possible, and his ways are not our ways, and yet this still doesn't sway me. Sorry.

877,971 page views to date.
Unfortunately, I'm guessing that some of these views are people hoping to
resurrect this mess. Oh well.

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Onion Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> p.s. I still do not believe that God transported
> John into the future (from 1972 to 1979) to
> witness the coming Kingdom...on a day in which
> John was spending quality time with his
> girlfriend. Yes, I know that with God all things
> are possible, and his ways are not our ways, and
> yet this still doesn't sway me. Sorry.

Such a reprobate. No wonder you blew out!

If the Muslims get 72 virgins in paradise why can’t we get at least one “girlfriend” in the kingdom (not sure what the gals get out of it — do they have a choice)?

Amos:
Such a reprobate. No wonder you blew out!
If the Muslims get 72 virgins in paradise why can’t we get at least one “girlfriend” in the kingdom?

Good point. I'm all about treating people equitably...so I guess now I need to rethink things (which I don't like to do).
Of course, I also tend to befriend Muslim reformers and/or atheists, so perhaps I should not be weighing in on this issue.

Richard M. Wrote:
> I would say that these public pages have shown more credibility than what its
> detractors could ever defend, lawsuits, in court or not . . .

> Regards,
>
> Dick

Yes