wow, wow, wow and geez, geez, geez,
in reading the very numerous posts of the last couple of days since my last post, i am almost overwhelmed by the testaments presented. in my reading those posts i cannot but be overjoyed for myself and, on the other hand, feeling subdued for the pain and suffering for those that remained during gary/marilyn reign. i see that my post about forgiveness has generated much heartfelt comments from several of the merries and such is reasonable given how nebulous such an idea as that affords.

as i have stated in several previous posts that i am a secularist, and i have also stated that that is not something i take pride in or shame in, it's just who i am, philosophically at this present point in my life. the reason i state this is simply a preface to what i next have to say about forgiveness.

i believe that justice takes place and only takes place in the temporal realm; that those who exact pain and disenfranchisement of others meet their due in courts of law rather than in some hereafter court of appeals, e.g., heaven's tribunal which decides who has been naughty or nice. simply my belief which is, no doubt, contrary to many of those who read and post here. so with that admission i say this - the hargrave juggernaut never laid a hand on me, never influenced anything in my life. that is until of recent by reading the travails of the many merries right here on this forum. if i suffer, it is only vicariously. before i move onto the notion of forgiveness, in the christian sense as i understand it, i'll say this. if i were one of you that suffered the deceit and exploitation that you did i would want to rip out his balls (not cut, too damn tepid) and stuff them up his ass or perhaps better, in his lying mouth. but then, i am not bound to one of the central tenets of the christian faith - forgiveness of others for their transgressions.

"forgive us as we forgive others who have transgressed against us", "let god be god" or "vengeance is mine sayeth the lord". the woe to those who hurt the little ones stuff, is not that retribution in the domain of god? in the ethereal sense, isn't forgiveness an extremely nebulous concept? in the temporal it seems to me only afforded to the perpetrator when that one admits to wrong doings and desirous of making restitution to those who have been robbed of material assets and essence of soul. i am pretty certain y'all won't get this from hargrave, he has likely dodged the bullet, the bazooka and the bazaam. were i in your shoes, would i forgive him? - pardon my french or swahili but, fuck no! does it matter to him, probably not at all - because he likely has more vested in his treasures on earth vastly more than any concern about some divine judgment after his death. and i contend that your faith dictates you all let it go and let god be god who will stiff hargraves balls up hargraves ass, not his mouth given he will not be allowed to speak.

nancyb and JJJ,
if you are interested in a good mex. meal together i suggest we not wait until the snow melts (may?) given the present givens. if you do not know how to contact me kboy and little red flag do if you've their contact info. happy ice fishing on the tundra.

Nancy B.
"John S visited - I was mesmerized by is speech pattern and voice. (There are some very old recording of John that if you get a chance to listen to you may discover why the first generation loved him."

I recall trying to bring my brother into the fellowship in the late 70's. I handed him a This Week, and he read the first few pages in my presence, curtly handing it back to me with this comment:"It's hypnotic." I think my attempt at evangelism pretty much stopped there.
Anyway, I suspect the cadence in speech and writing was something John studied in order to keep people's attention and maximize his influence. As I look back, I realize much what I thought was spontaneous on his part, was actually very calculated. A talented con man, he was.
Anyway, I.hope.this.comment.has.been.help.ful

changed.again.

Reepicheep Wrote:


> Forgiveness involves the offender repenting,
> confessing their sin and asking for
> forgiveness. And not in a closed room under some
> bizarre context of pastor penitent privilege. I
> have not heard anything remotely resembling
> confession and repentence from leaders, former or
> present, of TLWF. I have not seen anyone turn
> themselves in to authorities and admit sexually
> abusing minors under their care. I have not heard
> anyone taking responsibility for knowingly
> allowing the abuse, and turning a blind eye to the
> little ones under their care.

Neither have I.

I have been looking at a lot of the requirements for maintaining tax-exempt status and one principle that I am loving is that if an expenditure that seems to benefit those who are connected to, or paid by, the nonprofit is approved by the Board then all of the board members could liable for reimbursement and taxes. The way a board member (or anyone who has influence within the organization) shows they did not approve the spending is by having recorded/written evidence of that person's disagreement with the expenditure. Recusing oneself from voting or participating, or failing to attend the meeting where a decision is discussed, is NOT accepted as proof or a defense. If no dissent is recorded in the records, then the individuals are considered to have agreed.

I would think there would be lawsuits against leadership who made decisions without allowing dissent or for cult mind control that prevented an ability to even have a difference of opinion if the IRS found against any individual for the many questionable expenditures that benefitted people and did not benefit the churches or their tax-exempt/religious purposes.

Apparently, the best thing all of us have done is to publicly speak up. I would hope that those who are die-hard loyalists to the past will realize there is a requirement to speak out about wrongdoing to avoid being held responsible. Of course, the complete control exercised by various leaders will result in complete liability but that doesn't mean they will be the only ones culpable.

Ponderings....

i am sorry and so sorry that i disagree with most of the posts regarding forgiveness. i fail to see where in the scriptures that one forgiving another is prefaced on the transgressor confessing to their fault and taking aims to right their wrong. the onus does not lie with the one to be forgiven but rather the forgiver, completely irrespective of the perpetator's need/desire to be forgiven.

i do not believe in divine justice, i do believe in temporal justice. i used to believe in turning the other cheek; no longer do i do because, essentially, there will always be predators and i'd be a complete fool to turn a cheek to a predator. would i forgive hargrave? absolutely not, apart from his confessing his evils and divesting all his financial gains in some whatever fashion to those whom he has robbed, not only of $ but of soul, spirit and trust. isn't forgiveness somewhat conceptual rather than practical? and from what i have been reading from recent posts is that many or most suggest the practical application of forgiveness is based on the perpetrator's acknowledgement of wrong-doings as opposed to a carte blanche you are forgiven for all, a get out of jail free pass.

seems to me, given the present givens, gary hargrave will walk away, eventually, completely free from any essence of accountability, whether material or ethereal. rick holbrook never will need face the music that should be playing. they are free, cabambo. so where does that leave the rest of you?
well frankly, you are stuck, unlike myself. i wish that he meet his due in a temporal system of justice, which seems unlikely, not in some heavenly tribunal . methinks, most of you, the merry of the merries (i.e., christian adherents) are stuck with the unpleasant demands of your faith to forgive when it is seemingly not forgiveable, to let god be god, that vengeance is god's, that when hargrave walks past peter to face his eternal judgement and god is pondering (doesn't take long in hargrave's case) "what do i do with this, another frigging asshole who deceived my people for his own gain, dumped his wonderful wife and beautiful children in exchange for some shit pussy" (yes,god can be, at times, a potty-mouth) "and this fucker is supposed to be representing ME, GOD, what the goddamed fuck is going on" (yes, on occasion god has been known to have anger issues and also get a bit pissy and also uses his name in vain on occasion). so god is looking over gary's file and abuptly stops and then notes "i let this shit pussy marilyn get past the pearly gates, jesus (sorry, son), well shithiolah, i failed in my due diligence, must of been doing sudoku. well i know i've immense responsibilities but i too do need some downtime. so where was i, where were we, court recorder where are you? goddamnit (pardon myself). please court reporter stay away from that journalist, he's only 2 agendas, to get in your pants and into my mind. (son, where is my ritalin?). mr. hargrave, due to your trangresions levied against my faithful i hereby sentence you to hell or hades or the underworld" (god embraces diversity), but before that i am not too sure i am "comfortable" with standard procedure. i know, i know, sort of arbitrary gary but frankly there is something about you that really pisses me off. and i had this problem with job a long time ago but we got the celestial union to negotiate, and as you and many others know, we got things worked out. well gary, sorry your moral compass is too short of my good, moral pal job. i am sort of sorry but not really, so before i send you to the fire and brimestone environs, the universe (my boss) has allowed me 2 passes for every 12 million years to do what i wish. i must be an egoist, but i'm cutting loose with my first pass. mr. hargrave, before my sending you to perdition, which is my only choice based on similar judgements passed rendered, there is something about you that really pisses me off (noted again, my therapist, aalagogala has brought to my attention some of my anger issues, e.g., the noah issue). frankly, i despise how you have used multiples of people, i despise your pursuit of earthly riches while disguised in my service and mostly i despise how you subjugated those whom yearned for a greater truth, vastly beyond the temporal realities, the temporal truths, the temporal justice for the divine. you piece of shit, mr. hargrave, you cloaked yourself in my robes and made a mockery of my divinity (ok others, i'm really working on my ego trip, give me a few months/years). so hargrave, before i send you to the land of nashing teeth and eternal fire, which i usually do with your like, i gotta throw some spice into the mix; after all, i am god and sort of wrestle with anger issues, especially when my name and reputation is put on the line. geez, where was i? attention deficit you challenge, well screw you, i've much on the plate. you worry about your finances and the politics. oops, the hargrave thing. do i let hargrave off just because he is the typical asshole. can't do that, he is the atypical asshole, sort of (others have previously done the same). so before i send him to hell and all its attendant jollies i will employ these jollies- i will stick firecrackers in his ears lighted with a bunsen burner, i will stuff 9 cherrybombs in a watermelon up his ass and turn his new trophy wife into a nefertari mummy".

that's my sense about forgiveness but then i am not a christian, i do not turn the other cheek nor do i accept forgiveness from perpetrators absent of full restitution. life is so full of puzzles

PRETTYboy:


I am not sure which 'FORGIVENESS posts' you may be referring to, but FORGIVENESS is first and foremost for the benefit of the FORGIVER, so that the experiences of abuse do not continue to drip-feed poison into their mindset. FORGIVENESS by the FORGIVER is also not subject to any act of contrition by an abuser.

Accountability is another issue altogether. It is up to the legal system to grant any justice or mercy on behalf of the victim. FORGIVENESS requested from an abuser does not exonerate them from any legal consequences. One would hope that everyone eventually experiences a 'nature change' and be delivered from the darkness of a world where all victimizer/victim dynamics are no longer a reality, but that may be a day far down the road.

With all due respect to the lovely calls for forgiveness, I would like to point out that many people posting here (especially women and those who were minors at the time) have had forgiveness shoved down their throats for most of their lives while those hurting them gleefully piled abuse upon abuse. It is not healthy to ignore our own process because "someone" tells us that the correct procedure is to forgive. Right now. Or else. Or we're not a "good" person.

[www.psychologytoday.com]

"Forgiveness can be sweet and healing; that’s no lie. But please, before counseling forgiveness, take heed of the power and diversity of injuries as well as the nature of the person or group you are counseling. If we counsel forgiveness as a general practice, we turn a blind eye to so many—a blind eye that may put salt on wounds or add a layer of shame for those whom forgiveness is not the next step."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2019 09:45PM by Reepicheep.

Quote
Onion

Apparently, the best thing all of us have done is to publicly speak up. I would hope that those who are die-hard loyalists to the past will realize there is a requirement to speak out about wrongdoing to avoid being held responsible. Of course, the complete control exercised by various leaders will result in complete liability but that doesn't mean they will be the only ones culpable.

Good point Onion. Now I'm even more glad that I can't be shut up. Lol ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2019 09:47PM by Reepicheep.

Hello - I just discovered this site. I was in the Walk from 72-83 and it certainly led to some crazy difficult days. I am incredibly grateful for those who are holding leaders accountable and wise words that forgiveness is not about excusing nor letting people off the hook. Can anyone point me to where the legal discussion is happening? I am wishing/hoping that some of the pastors who gave their lives (ie. brother thomas) and then got screwed financially - his family maybe could benefit at sometime. Gratitude for those naming things that are finally having maybe some effective results.