Pretty Boy, when are we going to do lunch? Want to do mex after the snow melts?

Agreed! Let's NEVER Stop!

At first it feels odd to blurt out crap when I read someones' words that trigger a weird disjointed memory.I am so grateful to have the opportunity to sahre my little puzzle pieces with all of you; Onion, pretty boy, changed, reep, Jez, cludw, fire w


Now, It feels so good to not have that flash backs in my head that never felt good to be now out in the open.. I hope my rambling stories and all the other members stories are accepted with love to those who are deciding what to do with their affiliation with clwf.

Quote
changedagain
Yes, Hargrave and company always manage to dump guilt on the victims--or at least try to. Placing a requirement of forgiving your enemies (highlighting certain verses in Matt. 18) is just the latest manipulative tactic. The burden, of course, is once again placed on the wounded, while the transgressors refuse to specifically acknowledge their wrongdoing, and the havoc it has wreaked in people's lives. It's not working this time around. Fortunately, there is an immune system developing, with those further down the road in recovery helping the freshly wounded. Guilt-trips are being effectively resisted. People are on the path toward healing. Let it continue.

p.s. A friend of mine pointed out that the same chapter that mentions forgiveness also contains this ominous verse:
Matthew 18:6:
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
(so much for getting away with exploiting minors)

Changed, this is so important to point out the manipulative aspects of being told time and again that the burden for forgiveness is upon those who have been abused. And I'm so glad that your friend brought up Matthew 18:6 about harming little ones. Harming little ones, especially knowingly or repeatedly, is the most unforgivable sin in my mind.

If any of those perpetrators want to come before victims and their loved ones and confess their sins and beg forgiveness, and also be willing to pay the cost that justice demands, then perhaps. I would leave that up to the supreme judge of all.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9 KJV

Forgiveness involves the offender repenting, confessing their sin and asking for forgiveness. And not in a closed room under some bizarre context of pastor penitent privilege. I have not heard anything remotely resembling confession and repentence from leaders, former or present, of TLWF. I have not seen anyone turn themselves in to authorities and admit sexually abusing minors under their care. I have not heard anyone taking responsibility for knowingly allowing the abuse, and turning a blind eye to the little ones under their care. Where is the responsibility, then? It's not upon the little one who was victimized to carry the millstone off of their abuser's neck.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2019 11:39PM by Reepicheep.

Reepicheep Wrote:

> Changed, this is so important to point out the
> manipulative aspects of being told time and again
> that the burden for forgiveness is upon those who
> have been abused. And I'm so glad that your friend
> brought up Matthew 18:6 about harming little ones.
> Harming little ones, especially knowingly or
> repeatedly, is the most unforgivable sin in my
> mind.
>
> If any of those perpetrators want to come before
> victims and their loved ones and confess their
> sins and beg forgiveness, and also be willing to
> pay the cost that justice demands, then perhaps. I
> would leave that up to the supreme judge of all.
>
> "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
> to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all
> unrighteousness." I John 1:9 KJV
>
> Forgiveness involves the offender repenting,
> confessing their sin and asking for
> forgiveness. And not in a closed room under some
> bizarre context of pastor penitent privilege. I
> have not heard anything remotely resembling
> confession and repentance from leaders, former or
> present, of TLWF. I have not seen anyone turn
> themselves in to authorities and admit sexually
> abusing minors under their care. I have not heard
> anyone taking responsibility for knowingly
> allowing the abuse, and turning a blind eye to the
> little ones under their care. Where is the
> responsibility, then? It's not upon the little one
> who was victimized to carry the millstone off of
> their abuser's neck.

So true, Reep. As is the leader's custom, they want to skip the step of their personal accountability and emphasize the importance of the victims to forgive, not be bitter, have a right spirit...anything to shift the conversation away from their gross misdeeds. John did this well, labeling people that confronted him over real issues in his life, and portraying these people before the fellowship as channels of Satan. Gary and Marilyn took this approach into overdrive. From what I am witnessing, this tactic is becoming less effective. Many of those who have left the cult are now acutely aware of how they have been played and are fighting back...in part, by refusing to accept the blame subtly placed upon them by those who couldn't care less about their lives.
Let the healing continue :)

ONION:


"One area they practiced this manipulation and secrecy in was re: Rick Holbrook and his history of sexual abuse of women and girls. Yes, they would enlist ministries from other locations to come up to help with the church members who were having a hard time (literally freaking out) about Rick's multiple marriages and affairs, but they NEVER admitted they wanted a cover-up. In fact, most of the ministries that were called upon by them to counsel people in the churches were told very clearly that they wanted help to solve the problem with Rick but then they would describe issues with half-truths and partial pictures (i.e. never discussing the many complaints of Rick's sexual abuse - only acknowledging his marriages and those affairs).

Then when the work was done and the recommendation of the congregants was presented to G&M (and apparently a few others involved more deeply like Silas) they would just arbitrarily dismiss the ministry to go back home where often times they had been undermining that ministry's home church so there was nothing to go back to and THEN they would ignore the recommended solutions and reinstate Rick into his control over L.A. where he was free to resume his sexual misconduct as he pleased.

G&M were experts at ruining the reputations of any ministries that either knew too much about their secrets (including about Rick) or if that ministry was too popular. I believe they did this to MANY including Larry Makuakane, Dan Statton, Bill Maybee, Dan Luebbers, and John Miller. And I am sure there are many more."

(An extremely important point that cannot be overemphasized.)

LAWYERS take notice!

NancyB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pretty Boy, when are we going to do lunch? Want to
> do mex after the snow melts?


I remember being a little envious about the reunions and meetups in Cali that I read about on the FB page. Shall we have our own for Iowa folks? Let's pick a date and location (once we've survived this winter and roads are reliably passable again), put the word out, and see who shows up.

Maybe it could be at a shelter at the Washington or Kalona park so that it won't matter if it's 2 or 20 people. And, being midwesterners, we could do it in true potluck style. Nothing like sharing cult memories over a dozen types of potato dishes and green jello, after all. :)

What say ye?

Onion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> G&M were experts at ruining the reputations of any
> ministries that either knew too much about their
> secrets (including about Rick) or if that ministry
> was too popular. I believe they did this to MANY
> including Larry Makuakane, Dan Statton, Bill
> Maybee, Dan Luebbers, and John Miller. And I am
> sure there are many more.


Onion, I'm glad you mentioned the above names. I remember them well.

Over the past months, names, stories, and the great lexicon of words and phrases have triggered memories, things I hadn't thought about for 35 years. When I first started reading this forum, I didn't really think I need healing, I was just looking for some understanding about the walk. I was wrong.

In mentioning Larry Makuakane, memories came flooding back. I always looked at Larry as like a son to JRS. He was a gentle giant. I had no doubt he would have laid down his life for JRS.

I don't know if this came from the pulpit or was spoken in secret -- or it came both from the pulpit and was also spoken in secret -- my memory is not perfect, for sure. We/I was told that Larry was the reason JRS had not been healed. That Larry (God knows why) was the reason JRS was dying. Thinking about it now, what a horrific, horrific, and evil thing to say about another person. How heartless and cruel. I accepted what I was told so completely that I remember that I had bought a ring from Carolyn M. I remember having to post-date checks for several months, written out to them, in order to pay it off. I so believed that Larry was "killing" JRS that I took the ring I bought, wrapped it in toilet paper, and flushed it down the toilet. I thought I was doing it to save JRS. Insanity!

The reason I say I'm glad, Onion, that you mentioned Larry, is it only cements for me just how sick and twisted things were. How totally brainwashed I was. And how deeply sorry I am for believing BS about people without questioning it for a minute. I no doubt piled on by repeating the lies, which is a little hard to stomach.

Kbyrne wrote:
"I don't know if this came from the pulpit or was spoken in secret -- or it came both from the pulpit and was also spoken in secret -- my memory is not perfect, for sure. We/I was told that Larry was the reason JRS had not been healed. That Larry (God knows why) was the reason JRS was dying. Thinking about it now, what a horrific, horrific, and evil thing to say about another person. How heartless and cruel. I accepted what I was told so completely that I remember that I had bought a ring from Carolyn M. I remember having to post-date checks for several months, written out to them, in order to pay it off. I so believed that Larry was "killing" JRS that I took the ring I bought, wrapped it in toilet paper, and flushed it down the toilet. I thought I was doing it to save JRS. Insanity!"

I recall being in an Anaheim service during my days when I was based in Redlands, and John talked about his fallout with Larry. He said that Larry had told he was going to kill him and John responded that he would kill Larry. At least that was the gist of it, I'm only paraphrasing what was said, of course. But the death threats going both directions (according to John) was something I never forgot. Now that the messages have been digitized, it's reasonable to assume (given the deceit of TLWF leadership) that unbecoming segments like this were edited out. I also suspect Gary's admission during a Sunday morning Valley feast service in 90's that he wanted to punch my wife the night before for questioning his treatment of Dan Statton, has also been edited out. I do recall him stating in that following Sunday morning service that it was inexcusable that Dan didn't show up after he had been disciplined by him. You can't withdraw when God "deals" with you. Ironically, this is exactly what he is doing now, not directly facing the allegations made against him and Rick--using intermediaries to buffer him from the charges.
Ahhh...such a delight sharing these pleasant memories (s/).

p.s. I've only received two death threats from TLWF leaders, so perhaps I am not qualified to broach this subject.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2019 02:59AM by changedagain.

Changed, Onion and kbyrne,

Thank you for bringing up the names of people who were unceremoniously shown the door and disenfranchised for whatever reason or no reason at all.

I remember being told to go to church to hear a super secret restricted tape one night. It was about Larry Makuakane. I don't know what to call "those" tapes. Demonizing and orders to shun tapes. There were enough of them over the years. I only remember one thing about the Larry Makuakane tape. JRS said something like this, "And I looked at him [Larry] and realized that I was looking into the eyes of the Kahuna."

It didn't matter how the person had sacrificed their lives. Once a decision to expel and villify was made, that was it. As far as saying that Dan Statton should have been in services, my clear understanding of that night was that he was no longer welcome. I was shocked too, as he was my pastor. I only wish that all of us had accompanied your wife to the van, changed. Let GH try to punch out all of South Gate.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2019 04:36AM by Reepicheep.

I've had my own ugly encounters with Hargrave, so if my wife would have sought my consultation, I would have urged her not to confront him. But to her credit, she went barreling ahead. Anyway, to this day, she will not mention anything about her time in TLWF (21 years). A few experiences like that did the trick.
BTW, even though we've had an impressive level of participation in this forum, I suspect there are many more people still in the shadows not willing to publicly address the wounds inflicted upon them by these sociopathic 'ministries.' I understand. Whatever your process for healing happens to be--if it works, I support it.