@kBOY-- Just to clarify-- I was referring to the shepherds/ApCo or anyone in a leadership position being privy to the reality behind the curtain, not the sheep. I agree that the sheep were hoodwinked.

Different levels of access and hence, different levels of awareness. Aside from the exploitation of people in the fellowship to provide free labor for the benefit of key ministries, and the continuous harsh treatment of those that dare step out of line, I was not privy the outrageous violations that have gone public the past few weeks. Part of it was where I was stationed--14 years in Redlands, and 7 years in South Gate (the latter, worlds apart in demeanor and attitude to what was going on in the other L.A. churches). Also, I was simply too trusting that the person(s) that were delivering the 'living words' to the fellowship were living lives of integrity. Silly me.

BTW, when I was stationed in Redlands, I wrote consistently to my immediate overseerer (Dick L.) about specific issues that I thought needed to be addressed within the church. Dick, as those who know him personally can attest, was a very kind man, who believed love was the answer to all problems. The response I received for almost everything I brought to his attention was that I needed to love more. After awhile, I became weary of communicating. I actually tendered my resignation in the late 80's during our annual Fred and Ethel meeting with G & M. At the meeting G insisted I continue on. I did, big mistake.
Not everyone in 'middle management' (shepherds, elders) was linked heart and soul to top leadership. When I finally left in '98, it was in large part to my disgust of what had transpired at the Palmer Lake conference in '97. Far too much adulation for G & M, and references to Marilyn being the 'Lamp of Israel,' whatever the hell that meant. That was the tipping point.
BTW, during most of that conference, I wore a Cal Berkeley hat given to me from a young adult in the South Gate church. That certainly didn't help feeling accepted :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 12:26AM by changedagain.

In the 21 years I was involved in the fellowship, I've never spoken to Rick H., or him to me. I recall, however, during the whole "kill the male spirit' phase of TLWF (early to mid-90's), during which my wife had a directive from Mom to 'kill' me, asking someone who I knew was close to Rick whether he followed any of these teachings. The guy simply laughed. Message: stupid question
I decided not to follow-up with any other questions.

CHANGEDAGAIN:

That speaks volumes regarding the double-standard culture--do as I say, not as I do.

Here is an interesting article where a former WaPo foreign correspondent (Charles Krause) spent time with People's Temple members just days before the mass murder-suicide. The Congressman he was traveling with, and four others were killed on the tarmac, just before boarding the plane that would take them home. He was injured, and pretended to be dead, and was the only one to survive the investigate trip. Here's how he responds to a few questions:

Were there any people you met who made a lasting impression?

There were two, a brother and a sister. When we finally got there, each of us was greeted by someone who would come up to us and say, “Hi, I want to welcome you to Jonestown.” And it turned out that my minders, that’s what they were, were a brother and sister. Their last name was Tropp. Their backgrounds were virtually identical to mine. They were both white, Jewish, both had been educated at Ivy League schools, and we really had a lot in common. They had done their research, and they figured out who would present the best case for Jonestown. And I must say, they did. Even after everything happened, I still, because of them, I still have certain doubts. I mean some of the things that were going on there were actually good, if it hadn’t been for the psychosis of one man and the trap he led them into. The Tropps weren’t there because they believed in miracles or snake oil. They were there because they believed it was a socialist community and a place where different races and religions could be together.

What has it been like for you to process what you experienced and witnessed at Jonestown?

One of the things that I continue to wonder about is: Why did I survive? I was right next to the congressman, and they were shooting at him for sure. I wasn’t a principal target, but they certainly were there to kill everybody they could. But why did I survive it? And that is a question that has haunted me all my life. You know, there must be a reason. And what I’ve decided is that that reason is for me to continue to try to do what I can to try to make this world a little bit better. I guess I realized at that point that you have to live your life fully, and you can’t postpone everything until tomorrow, because tomorrow you may not be here.

We now have generations of people who are too young to remember Jonestown, and are more familiar with derivative pop-culture references — like the phrase “drink the Kool-Aid” — than the facts of the tragedy itself. But even that phrase isn’t true to what happened, right?

Right. I remember very distinctly, about three weeks after all of it, I heard from the president of Kool-Aid — and I was afraid, you know, are we going to start with a lawsuit and all of this? But it was just a very nice note saying, ‘Look, we just wanted you to know that as it turns out it wasn’t Kool-Aid, but we understand that Kool-Aid is sort of generic for all kinds of flavored drinks, and we wish you well.’ Apparently, it was Flavor Aid. But regardless, it was mixed with cyanide — and no, people didn’t take it voluntarily. In fact, there is a recording that exists, and you can hear the people asking, “Why are we doing this — do we really have to do this?” And then they had men with guns. So they really didn’t have much of a choice. And the children didn’t have a choice.

[The phrase ‘drank the Kool-Aid’ is completely offensive. We should stop saying it immediately.]

What do you think are the lessons of Jonestown, what it ultimately taught us about who we are?

I’m not sure, frankly, that, at the time, the real lessons of Jonestown were very clear. You know, people focused on the mass suicide-murder, the bodies. Anyone who was alive at that time, it was a very striking image, and people may even remember Jim Jones because there was something about him that was frightening. But the real lesson of Jonestown, and I wish our country had understood this: These people followed someone who led them to destruction. They believed in this guy. He lied to them. He cheated. He was involved with the sexual abuse of boys and girls in his temple. He took their money. He really enslaved them. And then he betrayed them, and then he led them to their deaths. I wish we had learned to be more cautious about following people who promise things and then betray the trust that people have given them. And I just hope that it doesn’t happen again.

Forty years later, in a world that has changed in so many ways, do you think this sort of thing could happen again?

Yes, there is the potential for it to happen again. It has happened again a number of times. We’ve had Waco, and we’ve had other incidents where it’s not as many people, but it’s the same sort of situation. I feel strongly that we need to be more skeptical about political or religious leaders who promise things, who seem to be hypocritical, who talk the talk but don’t walk the walk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 04:36AM by changedagain.

Forgive the typos and grammar goofs. I am working on a little tablet and don't maneuver so well without my dandy little mouse to go back and edit.

I appreciate everyone who contributes to this forum so much.

Walked: Thank you for your posts. I should share part of my personal story here because I was in many back room meetings over many years.

I edged myself out of the walk for many years while trying to keep some of my relationships alive. When my mom died in May of 2007 I felt I didn't need to pretend anymore to protect my mom. But it wasn't until I experienced some really horrible circumstances that I sat broken and completely alone in 2016 that it hit me -- all the years I had protected Marilyn & John and later G&M, even though I believed I was serving the higher purpose and bringing the JRS/G&M version of the kingdom and the false truth -- had created issues for my life and even though when I was finally taken charge of my own life, I had chosen honesty and fairness, I needed to or just wanted to go back and set the record straight on everything I knew and covered up.

But I also learned that one of the ways those leaders had been able to keep their secrets was they didn't tell any one person or onw group the whole story. I know and saw a lot but in posting and reading other peoples' posts, I have learned there was a lot more going on than I ever knew. That's why, as much as I can tear away the curtain, there is much more to every story. And that is why every story everyone tells is so crucial to ending the reign of terror.

Walked and others who were marginalized, you were and are valuable and your story ia not less important or your treatment less egregious than any other. Every single one of us was necessary for those leaders to maintain the giant machine of the walk. Slave labor, adoring fans, endless funds, people worshipping them nd eating up everything they said or did, was what they depended on. And everyone was treated and controlled horribly thru what I like to call the potato principle -- one day you are adored and treated like you sparkle more than Mahesh, and soon without warning you are treated like a potato ignored in the bin.

I still have a lot more to share especially for us left brainers who need facts. I will get it all out one day soon, a little at a time.

Changedagain: I am certain wearing that Cal Berkeley hat was what led you astray. Only a nephilim would do something like that!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2018 02:42PM by Amos.

I wish we had a "like" feature something like on Facebook. Any way RRModerator?

Amos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Changedagain: I am certain wearing that Cal
> Berkeley hat was what led you astray. Only a
> nephilim would do something like that!

I’m pretty sure that hat really blessed Gary.