Here we go again.

Neo's message was deleted.

Victim bashing will not be allowed here.

The perpetrators are to blame not the victims.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2018 09:55PM by rrmoderator.

I was in no way "victim bashing." Deleting my post was premature. This discussion about the inherent abusive system needs to take place. In my opinion, this point needs to be made if there is any hope for future change and for keeping the survivors from replacing this cult with another.

My point was not that the sheep are to blame. My point, is that the system is to blame. The system, which built up humans to be false gods is to blame. That system enabled these abuses. Simply saying this leader and this leader and this leader is evil, won't change anything. These churches will still continue. And they will do the only thing they know how to do, the thing they've been trained to do, deify human's as "christ in the Earth" giving inordinate power to humans to surrogate God and permeate sin. I honestly fear, that many survivors will either turn away from god completely, or will look for "churches" where they will be able to do the same and be entrapped again. Both options are a tragedy. Both options are, in my opinion, the worse possible outcome.

People are fooling themselves if they think this is fixed just because the sins of the leadership were exposed. This problem goes far deeper than that. The true sin here is creating false Gods. Breaking the first commandment. Now, I understand that people thought they were doing the right thing. I understand that they were lulled in with false promises of sonship, and love, and family, and worship. I understand that they thought they were tracking with the word or being a son, or whatever you want to call it. But the truth is, they were repeatedly violating the first commandment. If we can't see that, then there is no hope.

It is my hope to bring awareness to what it was like to be born into this cult. These children, of which I am one, who were born into this system, were raised to believe in myths about JRS and Gary and Marilyn. Our parents often told us bed time stories about John bringing down satan, or the wonderful way that Gary was called by John. Unintentionally, we were raised to believe in a mythology of righteousness about the LWF. In so doing, we were raised them to believe in False Gods, from Gary, to Marilyn, to APCO, to the local shepherds. We were raised to give ourselves over completely to these false gods. Many times our parents told us to give ourselves to these shepherds and we ended up in powerless situations. This is how a dynamic for abuse was created. I know it wasn't on purpose. But it still happened.

I understand that JRS swindled the second generation. I am in no way discounting that he lied to them and sold them the same lie that the serpent sold Eve, you too can be like god. You too can prophecy. You too can be a fellow heir. You too can be a son. You too can speak a word to the earth and change the world. Basically he preyed upon victims, who often came from histories of abuse, and made them feel that they could be strong. I get that. That is where the abuse began. And the second generation is not responsible for being victimized by those lies.

But, people have to understand, that the next generation was raised WITHOUT ANY choice in what they were going to believe. This is a whole deeper level of victimization. This younger generation never had a chance. They never had the ability to judge right from wrong. They were brainwashed from the beginning. Many from older generations entered into TLWF with some "walk with GOd" already. They can look back and say, well I had a "walk" before. I can go back to it. We can't do that. We are left with nothing. We often are left in a position without God and without the ability to find HIM. I am terrified for my generation. I am terrified that they will either never know god, or spend the rest of their lives hating him. Sadly, without our surrogate human Gods to tell us we are doing the right thing, we lose our own sense of worth.

Now, people seem to think that if they just attack the leadership the problem is solved. It's not. Not at all. I get that the sheep didn't abuse people directly, OF course they didn't. And of course they aren't to blame for the current abuses being unveiled. But, is their faith fixed? Do they suddenly have healthy relationships to God? Many people in these generations of people still have twisted views of God, and submission, and the path to "sonship." Many of them want to be free. But true freedom has to come from confronting the false teaching first. That's the only hope to finding a true relationship to God that isn't tainted by the lies of JRS, and G&M. Many of the people who have been freed from the abuses of the leadership will still go on to "do what they know to do." It's possible that many people in the congregation stopped listening to the Holy Spirit years ago, and replaced the voice of God with the Voice of Gary. Many who heard the Holy spirit either often ignored it, or were silenced. But, Gary wasn't the only one who ignored the Holy Spirit. There is no way the Holy Spirit would have testified to any of this. A hard truth to face, is whether or not many of the congregants of this system have ever really known God or the Holy Spirit. Have they ever known true salvation? Sadly, for many the answer may be no. That has to be the first place to start. With finding healthy churches.

We can all sit here and feel self-justified and blame the leaders. It will make us feel empowered and strong. But, it will just be another illusion and failure to truly be free. If we don't want to end up in a cult again, we've got to take ownership for embracing, supporting, and often defending such blatantly false teaching.

I am not here to attack any victims, or really anyone at all. I am a lifelong LWF victim of abuse myself. I began posting here under the original FACTnet over 10 years ago. I realize that many of you don't know me, and never read those posts. If my post comes across angry, for that I apologize. But, I am angry. I am angry at the abuses. And I am frightened for my generation. I am angry that the posts on FACTnet were ignored. Honestly, this rant isn't directed toward any of you. I just came here to vent and this was the only place that I could find.

IF you get anything from this post, even more so than attacking the leadership, find someone from my generation and LOVE them. Help them. Hold them. Pray for them.

They need your help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2018 12:17AM by Neo.

Also, I am in no way trying to pivot away from "following the money" and bringing consequences to the leadership. That needs to be done as well. I'm just trying to remind you that some of the victims need your help. Both have to be kept at the forefront. The mechanism for abuse was also the mechanism that gave many people their self worth. Without that system, there are people that are going to need our help. There are people that need it today. Maybe hundreds of them. DO whatever you can to reach out to them. Make yourself available however you can.

Neo,

I am very sorry for the children that were raised in destructive cults. You are right they have no choice and this is a terrible thing.

But there is such a thing as coercive persuasion and influence used to gain undue influence over people. The leadership, which knowingly used such techniques to break down the critical thinking of members did that.

Blaming the victims of such coercive persuasion schemes, or inferring that they are somehow enablers rather than victims is factually incorrect and misses the pivotal point of destructive cults. That is, the deliberate deception and manipulation of people without their informed consent.

No one that becomes involved with a destructive cult is informed from the beginning what they are really getting involved in. They are not told what demands and/or ethical compromises will be required of them in the long run. Instead, it's a "bait a switch" con. The bait is typically very attractive, idealistic and appealing. But once people are hooked through coercive persuasion they find out that the bait to get them in is not what they end up with ultimately.

You need to read about coercive persuasion and influence techniques before judging the adult members that brought children into the group and/or raised children in the group.

See the following links:

Coercive Persuasion [www.culteducation.com]

Thought Reform [www.culteducation.com]

Influence techniques [www.culteducation.com]

The nucleus for the definition of a destructive cult [www.culteducation.com]

Understanding these basics and common characteristics of destructive authoritarian groups is the bedrock basis for most if not all successful recoveries from cults. Ignoring this can easily allow someone to tricked again and fall into another similar trap.

It's important to research and understand the common structure and dynamics of destructive authoritarian groups called "cults." The names change, but the basics of how such groups are built and how they behave does not.

Following the money is very important. Financial transparency is one step in insuring that whatever churches that remain are kept honest. Also, there may have been financial crimes committed, which might require law enforcement.

Some warning Signs to watch for are a lack of democratic governance, meaningful accountability and financial transparency.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And from a biblical perspective Jesus warned that many would come in his name and he would not know them. He warned that they would be deliberately deceptive, i.e. appear as "sheep," but inwardly be "wolves." Also Paul wrote at length about abusive leadership in Galatians. Arguably the whole of Galatians can be seen as Paul warning Christians about abusive, controlling authoritarian leaders.

So both from a biblical and an academic perspective we can see what a potentially unsafe leader and/or group would be like.

A safe church typically has a democratically elected board with each board members serving a fixed term. The congregation votes by secret ballot to elect its board members that usually have staggered terms. The elected board can hire or fire a pastor and it controls the budget. The budget is transparently shared with everyone through published independently audited financial reports distributed annually to all contributors. Such financial reports disclose in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses taken from church funds.

Most churches have constitutions and bylaws that provide for these safeguards and insure that they are consistently followed and enforced.

An independent church that is essentially ruled over indefinitely by an entrenched leadership that has no meaningfully accountability is potentially unsafe. As is said, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Understanding all of this is an important step in recovery that provides stability and structure for moving forward and choosing a new church that is safe. That is, when and if former members are ready. No one need stop being a believer, but rather exercise caution and understand the warning signs of destructive churches, bad leaders and coercive methods they use.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2018 03:51AM by rrmoderator.

Neo - I appreciate your explanation. But I would clarify that I don't believe anyone on this forum or on the FB string of responses to Shalom or in many of the private groups dedicated to ending the abuse, believe that bashing the leadership will solve the problem. However, speaking the truth is vital to exposure and exposure has a domino effect that I hope will continue for a long time.

If speaking the truth seems like bashing, then that's on those who committed acts of violence (sexual assault, beatings, etc.) because their behavior was so heinous that even talking about our experiences factually seem like bashing.

A lot of people are trying to hold on to JRS and his teachings in the midst of this and that is heart breaking because he was a rabid perpetrator himself. He consciously and actively created deception to hide his wrongdoing. He gave innocent people (some ministries) words to do things that he needed done to protect his secrets. This included giving a word to get married to a young couple when he knew the young woman was pregnant with his child. He kept this deception going until the day he died. He actively created this deception by pretending he had a word from God when really he was motivated by his own fear of getting caught. The family he created with his deception turned out to be a family of very fine people - none of the circumstances reflect on them - but the carefully plotted deception did much to disabuse me of my belief that every word spoken by JRS was a word from God.

It is so easy to blame “middle management” for all the suffering caused in TLWF, but I would suggest that except for a few bad apples, most were duped just like everyone else. They too are victims, and should not be blamed. There are a handful at the top deliberately causing harm, but I think most shepherds were just following orders, believing they were following God, and somehow things would eventually work out for the good of everyone. The evidence is how quickly there was a change in direction as soon as the deception bubble was popped. Repentance is not just feeling bad about something, it’s turning and going in a different direction. In spite of the many accusations, I still don’t think there was a deliberate effort by followers to harm others. Many people, thought out of the picture, are aching over the destruction that has been done to people’s lives, for no other reason than they genuinely love and care for them. There are also many on the sidelines cheering for these recent developments!

The difficult step is moving from a system that promotes dependency, to one that encourages individual responsibility. Many people have left a business critical of a boss and hoping to find a better life by starting their own business. Later, they discover that the new “boss” is more difficult than the one they left. It’s not as easy as they imagined. The more we relinquish personal responsibility for our spiritual lives to others, the more we empower a system that is destructive. Jesus said to call no man leader, father, or teacher for good reason. TLWF has a culture of spiritual welfare – I surrender the work of hearing the voice of God myself, and then I blindly follow whatever you tell me to do. In the words of the famous prophet Dr. Phil, “And how is that working out for you?”

Freedom is much more difficult to live under than bondage. Most people need to be organized and kept busy - just to keep them out of trouble. For some, this new found freedom will be the discovery that they never really cared that much about God in the first place, and now they are free to do whatever they want. For others, it will be the discovery of the narrow gate that few find, that leads to a deeper walk with God than they ever imagined they could have. Personally, I’ve tasted a little of both - and a lot in between. These will not be easy days, but eventually you will look back and be thankful. I can be rough moving out of your parent’s house, but learning to stand on your own two feet has its own rewards. That’s real maturity.

>Neo: "Many people in these generations of people still have twisted views of God, and submission, and the path to 'sonship'. Many of them want to be free. But true freedom has to come from confronting the false teaching first. That's the only hope to finding a true relationship to God that isn't tainted by the lies of JRS, and G&M."

I wonder if many of the young people who came in during the 60s and 70s actually had little Christian grounding and therefore, as they embraced twisted JRS theology, became ripe for the picking. IMHO those who finally left couldn't help but bring unhealthy ideas and habits out with them. I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard somewhere that bank tellers learn to identify false currency by studying the true (any bank tellers out there?). Even if it's fake news, the story illustrates a basic principle: we can't identify the false unless we're firmly planted in what's true.

>Onion: "A lot of people are trying to hold on to JRS and his teachings in the midst of this and that is heart breaking because he was a rabid perpetrator himself. He consciously and actively created deception to hide his wrongdoing. He gave innocent people (some ministries) words to do things that he needed done to protect his secrets. This included giving a word to get married to a young couple when he knew the young woman was pregnant with his child. He kept this deception going until the day he died. He actively created this deception by pretending he had a word from God when really he was motivated by his own fear of getting caught. The family he created with his deception turned out to be a family of very fine people - none of the circumstances reflect on them - but the carefully plotted deception did much to disabuse me of my belief that every word spoken by JRS was a word from God."

I think that's always been the trend: that others perverted the pure, true word of JRS, and if we could just get back to the real word, we would all be okay. Bet you anything that some of the churches will choose to excise all things post JRS and concentrate on getting back the of basic of John as the Living Word.

>Larry Bobo: "Freedom is much more difficult to live under than bondage. Most people need to be organized and kept busy - just to keep them out of trouble. For some, this new found freedom will be the discovery that they never really cared that much about God in the first place, and now they are free to do whatever they want. For others, it will be the discovery of the narrow gate that few find, that leads to a deeper walk with God than they ever imagined they could have. Personally, I’ve tasted a little of both - and a lot in between. These will not be easy days, but eventually you will look back and be thankful."

Totally this.

I wish we could eliminate the term "GOD" here all together. "GOD" is, the same or different for all.If it was ever meant to be a human then it would have to be within all humans. It has honestly Nothing to do churches "family businesses". I recognize that I am new to this forum but I think everyone at least kind of knows who I am. I am so proud to post as myself. to finally have an avenue to tell the same story as all others. Hungry to help make the world a more loving,tolerant place as a youth got caught up and spun around in the exact opposite.We married or not had children or not. Got disillusioned; questioned authority; left and kicked out;slowly built authentic lives. Everyone their own unique story.

AND THEN CAME SOCIAL MEDIA

We as individuals finally have a collective voice.
This is about righting and organization that ultimately only destroys everything in its path to enrich itself.
Again, every story different.
We can stay united to end it. I"m confident many people are wondering how to close those doors so they can never open again.
I have confidence that some still within that organization will be moved by the horrors and worse the coverups that have always been "preached" away; They will refuse to turn away from truth again. They will no longer be so afraid of what the future holds without their †ether and embrace the thoughts of true family and friendship relationships. Total acceptance. We continue to say Follow the Money only because that is the only seat of power.

Wow, loving all these comments!! All so true. I have completely stepped away from any and all teachings from anyone involved with the church. While there may be a thread of truth to some of it, if it does not bring you into a God centered relationship, not people based, then that should raise lots of red flags. We are all on individual journeys now and still learning, healing, and forgivng ourselves and others. Fear, guilt, and anger, have been the hardest for me to overcome. This forum has been very helpful as of late and yet has also stirred things up within me that I honestly have not thought about for quite some time. But God is good and it is truly by His great love, grace, and mercy that I am where I am today.

>Neo...Every person who is in or out of this Fellowship needs to really educate themselves about what a cult is and understand all the dynamics involved...nobody can do this for you. Becoming free from all of the destructive emotional, mental, and physical abuse becomes a life long journey...the good news is the freedom you and others will experience is so worth the process!!

Lastly, Neo, and ALL the rest in this forum, a BIG thank you again for sharing. We are no longer in CA so not sure how I can help but there are those in this forum who are so perhaps a door of opportunity will present itself. No clue how this can happen since most of us are still considered the evildoers, lol.

I am getting some heat from some recent participants in this entire issue, especially on FB. I sent a facebook message to the reporter who generally releases a piece on the Christmas Truck as follows:

Hello Mr. Eisner. I was informed that you have reported on the annual Christmas Truck that routinely goes out on Christmas Eve and is hired by various chambers of commerce (Toluca Lake and Studio City, to name two).

The man who credits himself as being the founder and director of the Truck, Rick Holbrook, has been kicked out of his church and is not allowed to even attend services under allegations of routine and ongoing sexual abuse of young, female church members.

Gary Hargrave, Rick's stepfather and the leader of the church, has stepped down and published an apology letter while apparently hoping more revelations can be stopped by his action. But the exposure continues. I can send you links to FB where tales of Rick's abuse have been published publicly and the victims continue to come forward. Many believe that Mr. Holbrook used his position in the church to create events focused on including "the young people" in order to supply himself with an ever expanding herd of prey. This would include the dancers following the Christmas Truck.
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The only links I would ever give a reporter are those links that have been made openly and publicly of course. There are many private groups and to my knowledge, only Shalom's letter and attachments have been made public on FB and on this forum. Not the shared remarks.