wow! there is very crucial elements in all of the above comments that i'm not sure where to jump in with a reply with out losing my comments in my head...here goes...
Dear friends, can you see how our eyes are opening wide now? the insight here is truly amazing ow that we are out of the forest to see the trees.

It is wonderful to connect with you Onion. ( Are we all healing like layers of an onion?)

-Was it going Rouge who pointed out the Child Labor Laws? Excellent point!
- Think about the comment about the good teachers ( no doubt the children are taught by loving people- see my point below. it may be a conflict for our loved ones on the inside.
_Keep in mind the comment about teachers may see something "off" to paraphrase...Excellent point!

I will attempt to pull this together for self and I hope you can follow my process:
If I can assume that tclw philosophy may be assuming they above above the laws of the land because they have "kingdom schools". (My words)

Some Shiloh folks may be ignorant of the law - ignorance of the law is no excuse n court.. Even an over site is no excuse.

I will not dispute that homeschooling in general may be in the best alternative for some children and leave it at that. I have home schooled my self: my now adult kids went to pubic and alternative schools. I did what I had to do for my children to get an education. I support other loving parents decisions.

Am I understanding that we as a loving group are currently concerned about what is going on with loved one's children at Shiloh? May be I can give you some pieces of the puzzle.

Are we not all concerned about a hidden agenda that is breaking the laws that were meant to protect our children? ( Is 'shilo' right or wrong- I don't know.)

what I do know as a former "mandatory reporter" I want to explain a few issues for anyone who has not been a health care professional or teacher or even a church pastor...or just help us think it thru...

By law a person in certain professions are required to report specific things in order to protect vulnerable citizens such children, the disabled and elderly. ( NO, a MR is not anything like a nazi snitch)

A mandatory reporter does NOT pass judgement. They must report certain things; is the child always hungry, too tired; suspicious marks/ possible injuries not cared for or no reasonable cause. is the child 'distant'? Seem to be abnormally fearful or over compliant?

Once the paper work is submitted in a timely manner a state investigator comes in to investigate allegations. It is NOT a witch hunt.

the idea is protect vulnerable citizens who may need protection. Some times there is not enough evidence to take an investigation further.

A case is either Founded or Unfounded. Often there is not enough evidence one way or the other. Sometimes things are not what they seemed to be and are quickly cleared up without legal fanfare.

it is pain in the behind for the teacher, nurse for doctor to have to go through the paperwork knowing full well parents are going to be angry.
But, they are are legally bound by law. They must take annual training to make a report in good faith.

The mandatory reporters can get even death threats by the child's family...it is scary, let me tell you. to be in that position as a mandatory reporter at times...These people are NOT Satan. They are doing their job or they lose it and can face prosecution for doing nothing. Many a mandatory reporter labors in anguish over what they are required by law to report. Experience and training kicks in at times that regular folks turn a blind eye to.

It is not comfortable on the families side to have DHS come knocking at your door, either.

What can happen is supposed to be positive with parents given assistance to make on course corrections or to get the resources they need to keep their children safe and healthy. Stuff happens. that is life.

So, if our families still at Shiloh have kids in "study hall" in kingdom school and are pulled out to "work" without following child labor laws..( I have to wonder if it is to 'discipline')...volunteer teachers may not be aware of the fact that they are in fact un-certified but still mandatory reporters.
the upper room entourage may or may not be aware of the laws nor why those laws exists. God certainly knows, but, a cults'god' may not be giving the same 'discernment' for the "why". Ooops!

I don't know, but I have to wonder ( just from experience) are some kids being 'disciplined? I know 35 years ago my son was disciplined' in kingdom school. JRS at the time spoke over the pulpit about "the state CA not allowing us to 'discipline' our kingdom kids as the bible tells us to."

I apologize for my verbosity...I hope I am making sense to those who may not know the process of mandatory reporting.

If they were 'disciplining' or "breaking a bad spirit" by putting them out to work hard labor under not appropriate conditions for the child's age a public school teacher would notice 'the look' of a "broken child". They would have no choice but to fill out those required forms and whole legal process.

Keeping the kids isolated from the outside world keeps the secrets with in the cult..no one knows...it is acceptable in the eyes of the cult beliefs. tho' it is against the law. Having volunteers is in a sense wonderful.. but those well meaning volunteers may be ignorant of the law-Could that be the idea?

And are these young lads at an age where they don't know what possibly ( I don't know) being done to them or forced to do really not ok? Do they know they can tell their parents? I am just guessing.

Interesting side thought is the Amish. Some families have had a lot of not so acceptable- hush-hush family dynamics which may surprise the out side world, but no one tells the outside world. ( I have many friends who were former Amish)

My 2 cents worth. I kept on reading this fascinating info. I wanted to jump in with the name "Mickelson"
How many know who Mary and Martha's brother was? it was Paul, but not in Peter, Paul and Mary.

The family sang and or Paul played the organ.Tthe whole sword logo was not original but why would most folks know that? We did not have the internet. What access we had was the new paper, the radio, the public library.'

The Mikelson family were performers marketing their craft under the name of Jesus.
I'm not trying to imply that they were or were not Christians spreading the gospel. Back when a wanna-be preacher needed a wife and a family that could "entertain" the congregation. The fact that JRS married a Mikelson a well know Christian family increased his "credibility as a man of god."
It was all "marketing".
Still today, I am sorry to say, the main stream church program that draws in the crowd to fill the offering plate is the entertainment in disguise a worship I am sorry to say.( After the walk I joined whatever neighborhood church that accepted a divorced mother for the support in a strange city. I am kind of sort of ashamed to say the truth. My eyes were opened when I attended church business meetings with all the knock down drag out fights over old gospel music or the rock band style for "worship".

I don't know if Paul M was ever in Grace chapel or not. I had listened to his records at home. I was aware of the sword thing. Being a weird observant child, I wondered about it. tho' I had not had reason to think about it.

You all know the connection to Brazil and the Mikelson family?

Martha's and Paul's sister Mary married __ Williams- missionary family to Brazil.
Jrs sister, Mary ( a different Mary) married missionary to Hawaii, B Arnold. that was before it was state.

JRS sister Eva and her hubby Fred were missionaries to Africa. Being a missionary gave a lot of credibility to home folks. (I feel crass saying this.)

As a teen when the these families came home as guests to preach and entertain the congregation, I was in awe. So was my father, so he was inspired to make sure his girls sang and played our instruments. of course I was devoted as an aspiring preachers wife to do so.

What I found "odd" as a tween trying to a big girl blending with the teen group was the missionary kids talk. The local churches supported the missionaries. Please forgive me if I sound critical, but as a tween, I did not understand why the talk about "specially made clothes were sewn with gold thread" or the housekeepers. Apparently money sent form home offerings from what ever sister church went much father in a foreign country than it did at home. What I heard the missionary teens say was that they were privileged. My understanding of their words did not fit with my 111, 12 or 13 year idea of sacrificial ministry...
I know I was naive and and down right still dumb back then. I feel like should ask for forgiveness for my "critical spirit." But, I will just blurt it out- I think that this family got used to luxury in the name of Jesus. I do know that the stevens as children did sacrifice as PK's. but it was the depression and almost everyone was poor.
EB Johns sis often made statements that she deserved to have lots of nice things for her sacrifice for the congregation. I was child and I questioned the words of a missionary. I knew better than to voice what I said back then. there seems to be a long standing disturbing pattern of behavior that is showmanship perhaps over sincere convictions to serve god and help the congregation learn about the love of god.e
I believe Grandpa S was a loving man of god who card for the original local flock of loving people. But some how at least 2 of his off spring resented the sacrifice of being a PK and got greedy. Teaming up with a showman Mikelson family opened the doors for them all to be act to be something they weren't in the eyes of the people who filled the offering plates.

I hope this helps pull a few more things together for everyone who did not know the connections.

Keep in mind that CA was not yet that populated in the early '50's. aimee simple macPhearson influenced so many con artist cults of the future. tlw , Scientology, billy Sunday, Grahm all of them learned from the mother of all religious showmen/ actresses who played the part as an angel of light on asuza street.

(I am a lousy typest, but if I leave typos it is harder for spies to google any names.)

Hi Apostle Dog
it takes a long time to read thru all of these threads.

I stumbled upon the "Doctor thing". Way back when basically preachers who had some religious schooling would go by "doctor of divinity". when I read your question I realized many people were not aware of the BS respect the honor a doctor of divinity got.

To confirm what I recall as a BS degree I conferred with the doctors of Wikepedia

Before I quote i want to say that my son is a "licenced minister" his Bs's is way out of issues with the pious at times. He got his 'degree on line by submitting an application. tho' he has read the bible from cover to cover many times. yes, he can marry people.

I quote wikapedia. You may want to go potty before you lol! "In the United States, the degree is generally conferred honoris causa by a church-related college, seminary, or university to recognize the recipient's ministry-orientated accomplishments.[4] For example, Martin Luther King (who received a PhD in systematic theology from Boston University in 1955) subsequently received honorary Doctor of Divinity degrees from the Chicago Theological Seminary (1957), Boston University (1959), Wesleyan College (1964), and Springfield College (1964).[5] Billy Graham (who received honorary Doctor of Divinity degrees from The King's College and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) was regularly addressed as "Dr. Graham", though his highest earned degree was a Bachelor of Arts degree in anthropology from Wheaton College.[6][7]

Under federal law, a 1974 judgement accepted expert opinion that an "Honorary Doctor of Divinity is a strictly religious title with no academic standing. Such titles may be issued by bona fide churches and religious denominations, such as plaintiff [Universal Life Church], so long as their issuance is limited to a course of instruction in the principles of the church or religious denomination".[8] However, under the California Education Code, "an institution owned, controlled, and operated and maintained by a religious organization lawfully operating as a nonprofit religious corporation pursuant to Part 4 (commencing with Section 9110) of Division 2 of Title 1 of the Corporations Code" that offers "instruction... limited to the principles of that religious organization, or to courses offered pursuant to Section 2789 of Business and Professions Code" may confer "degrees and diplomas only in the beliefs and practices of the church, religious denomination, or religious organization" so long as "the diploma or degree is limited to evidence of completion of that education"; institutions "shall not award degrees in any area of physical science"

I'm just 3 years late reading about the alleged issue with M and cotton. AS I recall he was a very nice family man. I do not recall him calling me a "bitch" like the other boys called me. I respected him.

That recollection is no proof of anything.

To me the cotton and m just sounds like a bad joke.
Maybe the possible rumors was a 'Wag the dog" to throw something off track as I think happened often enough.

A few years into the future there will be a controversy about who should have known better or who was at fault for john having an affair with his secretary.
( No, I am not prophetic I read that part tonight in 2108. I point this out because there are ways con artists, illusionists can manipulate our thinking they have magical powers.)

it seemed to me at the time in the 60's that promiscuity was rampant in the CA churches where it was not acceptable in the Iowa churches.. I was still very naive in the 60's. But what I did know was "it takes 2 to Tango."

The pastor and his secretary both lied and covered up their "sinful acts". Their method of operation was based on a pack of lies for decades.
We have to ask ourselves where did the words out of their mouths begin or end to be the whole truth an nothing but the truth on a stack of bibles?

why did "we" believe the BS that is so much clearer today? "We" were all enablers to adultery?

Any other religious group would have defrocked him and hung a scarlet letter on her chest or even stoned her.

Ouch!

You can bet your sweet bippy, friends, that there was a lot of sleeping around among the very elite who shepherded the flock.

The mature adults in the valley and south gate should have noticed. There were a lot of impressionable teens in the walk in the 60's.
I flew in from Iowa for my sisters wedding- a sham marriage with one of John boys. I was 17 when I fist saw M at the valley. I thought she was acting like a jr high girl bossing her boy friend of the week around. but what did I know?

Look at the example demonstrated that was horrendous... By the times I was a full grown adult I should have known better about the adulterous relationship cover up using the excuse that martha was nepulim. M-m-? and how long was john getting revelations from god? why was the god of the kingdom so slow to reveal this to john?

I have to confess i am just as guilty as the of the collective congregation who unwittingly enabled John and M's adultery. The walk could have ended if "we" had kicked the Tango two-some to the curb.

I think "we" have to take responsibility for our own gullibility in this sick scenario if we were around in the 60's. "We" allowed them to continue to do wrong step by step.

those who did speak up were branded and put on the prayer list for the death sentence...Really how morally wrong is this?

Sorry, I'm long winded. I look up to read another point.

think about the "prophesies" the private council for a word of from god. These private meetings for a word from god who was designed in women clothing, was an opening to vulnerability for "black mail" in the name of Jesus.
People make human mistakes.

M knew every dirty little secret that most likely came as a a"confession' asking for help from the bro to get their heart right with god. Think about it. We handed M the weapons to use against us. her personal knowledge as secretary was a confidential as dr patient; lawyer/ client privilege.

"We" handed over the "keys to the kingdom" to her. M seems to have had no scruples. Not excusing john. but in my opinion, m was man eater. She may have known so much confidential info she had at her disposale- she got what she wanted when she wanted it.
I think is was she who went after the upper room men who could expose her.- my opinion.
I think about how and why 'we' left our proverbial barn doors open" yet were surprised our horses got loose. How many males in the walk did she have by the,excuse me, ba-ls when backed into a corner?

I'm guessing. I feel bad that cotton seemed to me to be a victim of rumor. without his confirmation I think we should stay away from names someone passed on and we don't know why.
At some point we may want to look at why cotton's name was passed on. so I am kind of glad the rumor was revealed. I don't know how this subject might be approached in the more current posts in 2016 to 2018. without proof I think we should accept this as unsubstantiated rumor.

seventies walker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rrmoderator Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > NickleandDimed:
> >
> > The terms "brainwashing" or "mind control" are
> pop
> > culture labels for what is technically known as
> > coercive persuasion, thought reform or the use
> of
> > influence techniques to gain undue influence.
> > Undue influence is a recognized fact as
> > established by law in courts in the US and
> around
> > the world.
> >
> > I have been qualified, accepted and testified
> as
> > an expert regarding such techniques used by
> > destructive authoritarian groups.
> >
> > History is filled with examples of the undue
> > influence of such groups and there have been
> many
> > court rules. The database of the Cult Education
> > Institute includes research papers, court
> > documents and news reports confirming this
> fact.
> >
> > To claim that somehow that the history of
> coercive
> > persuasion and influence techniques used to
> gain
> > undue influence is a "myth" is ignorance at
> best
> > and reflects a lack of serious research or at
> > worst denial and an effort to obscure the facts
> > and engage in apology for groups that use such
> > methods to hurt and exploit people.
>
> Thanks for all your hard work. I agree.

seventies walker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rrmoderator Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > NickleandDimed:
> >
> > The terms "brainwashing" or "mind control" are
> pop
> > culture labels for what is technically known as
> > coercive persuasion, thought reform or the use
> of
> > influence techniques to gain undue influence.
> > Undue influence is a recognized fact as
> > established by law in courts in the US and
> around
> > the world.
> >
> > I have been qualified, accepted and testified
> as
> > an expert regarding such techniques used by
> > destructive authoritarian groups.
> >
> > History is filled with examples of the undue
> > influence of such groups and there have been
> many
> > court rules. The database of the Cult Education
> > Institute includes research papers, court
> > documents and news reports confirming this
> fact.
> >
> > To claim that somehow that the history of
> coercive
> > persuasion and influence techniques used to
> gain
> > undue influence is a "myth" is ignorance at
> best
> > and reflects a lack of serious research or at
> > worst denial and an effort to obscure the facts
> > and engage in apology for groups that use such
> > methods to hurt and exploit people.
>
> Thanks for all your hard work. I agree.

Thank you rrmoderator for that valuable validation.

WOW! that was "powerful" and sincere on bob's part. With a "Love like that" why would people not fall?

I'm not sure how to process. I enjoyed the private 'performance' to the "chosen ones".
I loved the feeling of belonging of "something greater than ourselves." it is all flooding back how the pipe piper seduced so many.
That was the first time I ever saw that performance. thank you for sharing the link.
In the wee hours of the morning I read the url to the archives to find old stuff that has been hidden. I am trying to back up form page 600 to the 200's. I should have copied it down this morning so we can look it up.
Anyone have the archives link? My son wants to dig deep.

GoingRogue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> changedagain Wrote:
>
> > The people in the South Gate fellowship have
> been
> > through enough. They certainly didn't need
> some
> > bitter guy casting spells on them. What a nut.
>
> No kidding, changedagain. As if there wasn't
> enough hocus pocus coming from G&M. Geez!


Interesting. I think this "nut' issue points out that there were "nuts" in with loving people that created an additional chaos. who would have know what do to with "trolls" wolves in sheep clothing in the walk just for the hell of it? I'm not condoning nor condemning the leadership for allowing the "not true saints" in there. Really where was the 'discernment" among the leadership? Truth was it was true godly wisdom was never really there.

I have to question if there was a motive to allow the kind of people in south gate or any other church that were prone to turning around in anger to curse an entire group with their voodoo in the future? There had to be unhealthy patterns of behavior. My sister was at South Gate in earlier years. Those people just wanted to love god and get people saved. ( From my view as a visitor.)

JRS did seem to gravitate, don;t you think t people who might have a "knowledge" of out of the min stream thinking. I believe it is a fact that jrs himself adapted his techniques from prisoners to devlope his cult. Creepy

NancyB Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> Keeping the kids isolated from the outside world
> keeps the secrets with in the cult..no one
> knows...it is acceptable in the eyes of the cult
> beliefs. tho' it is against the law. Having
> volunteers is in a sense wonderful.. but those
> well meaning volunteers may be ignorant of the
> law-Could that be the idea?
>
> And are these young lads at an age where they
> don't know what possibly ( I don't know) being
> done to them or forced to do really not ok? Do
> they know they can tell their parents? I am just
> guessing.
>
> Interesting side thought is the Amish. Some
> families have had a lot of not so acceptable-
> hush-hush family dynamics which may surprise the
> out side world, but no one tells the outside
> world. ( I have many friends who were former
> Amish)

Great points about mandatory reporters, NancyB. I doubt that the volunteer study hall supervisors would have training in this, or even believe that anything was amiss in pulling kids out to do manual labor. When a person's mind is warped to the "cult mentality" and systematically turned off, the heart may not see correctly either.

Mandatory Reporters include every level imageineable of school employees.

In 1963 mental health professionals became mandated reporters and that was all. As the years went by, the law was amended MANY times to include every other type of professional that might come into knowledge of, or reasonably suspecr, child abuse. INCLUDING THE CLERGY.

I am not sure when Clergy were added to the list of mandated reporters but I DO remember the reaction of the walk church leaders (specifically G&M). I estimate it was in the late 80's or early 90's because I was still working in legal stuff with Dan Statton.

Gary wanted to know if the walk ministries could avoid this requirement under the clergy-penitent privilege exercised by the Catholic church to protect them from having to communicate what was heard in the confessional. I believe G&M had gotten some legal input that yes, the church ministries would be protected from having to report what was learned in the form of a confession.

But I did some research and I don't think that argument would ever hold up for the walk ministries because the methods and confidentiality were so helter skelter. The requirements under the clergy-penitent privilege are very tight and very strict.

The walk churches response to this issue was to officially/formally ordain everyone they could think of so that those people could claim privilege and not be "confused" about what they might have heard or about their responsibility to report various issues to the authorities.

This was very confusing to me back then although, sadly, I think I have a better understanding now for what the motivation was at that time. Now I'm not confused, just deeply disgusted.

I have a pamphlet that describes California's mandatory reporting laws. This pamphlet is from 2013 so the law may have been amended since then but I believe every time the law is amended it is done for the purpose of making the requirement more strict and far reaching. It is too large to attach here but I will see if I can shorten it down so I can share it on this forum.

I wonder what the policy is in the COL school.

NancyB - Thank you for your kind mention. I will add to what you wrote, JRS had a LOT of affairs for a very long time with many women. He knew how to reel them in with all his spiritual mumbo jumbo but I agree that M took advantage of everything and anything and anyone from her sacred position.