I do not but my very reliable source obtained the information from family members on both sides of the question - directly. He was involved in legal research on the divorce of the mom and very unsuspecting duped "father" He said the divorce documents from early 90's tell most of the story.

Re: NickelandDimed,
I'm sorry to hear that, I was slandered as well and when it involves trusted individuals like a shepherd or JRS, they're some of the wounds that take the longest to heal.

Shepherds had no attorney/client privilege, and I knew some of the higher ups that were encouraged to keep records via word documents and emails. If you were connected to the main shepherds (church leadership who reported to G&M), you had a @livingword.org email account and were highly discouraged from discussing church business on unsecure domains like .yahoo, .hotmail, or .gmail. A fellow dropout from Palmer Lake remarked that his church leader once complained to the youth that "they were too obedient and didn't act out enough; and so there weren't enough learning points in their shepherding relationships." That was definitely code for "they didn't have enough dirt on them to keep them insecure and submissive."

The frequency with which sheep were abused makes it impossible that they were isolated incidents. That direction was coming from JRS and later from G&M. It is the result of JRS's words on absolute obedience. He instituted interrogations called "probbing" behind closed doors into people he believed weren't being forthright, which at times was everyone. In those cases he'd yell and curse at them for witholding something in their hearts from god and him. If you weren't sobbing by the end of these sermons, you didn't have a breakthrough and should repent for not having a breakthrough. I was called a liar and someone "who told my shepherds only what they wanted to hear" so many times I finally realized it was rehearsed. I believe some shepherds probably had it done to them and felt this type of purging was somehow god's will, but the direction and the example for it is in John's and later Gary's teachings.

I recently found out they were doing this at Summer Camp as recently as five or six years ago. They separated the youth group (YASP?) into rooms alone with two or three leaders and pleaded with them to "repent for the warfare over their lives." The leaders then told them to repent for leaving the source and allowing their spirits to be tarnished. They said the theme had something to do with being clothed in white garments; Gary was on a Revelations kick. That or he was watching "the Leftovers."

It sickens me to think that those kids were probably traumatized. The elders they were put in a room with were not gender specific. This particular individual sobbed and relayed various vulnerabilities which were certainly annotated and will be relayed to a future shepherd in order to "probe" further and remind them how lost they'd be without a shepherd in their lives to guide them away from their own will.

changedagain you've been denigrating G&M. Who harmed you. Here for over a decade. When I posted about the ministries. Not G&M. Who harmed me. You cut me down. Because it wasn't about G&M. I have the same right. Under the rules here. To express myself. As do you. Without you cutting me down. Please don't judge my posts according to. Your point of view.

GS your rules on reddit. Don't apply here. You don't control the narrative here.

"changedagain you've been denigrating G&M. Who harmed you. Here for over a decade. When I posted about the ministries. Not G&M. Who harmed me. You cut me down. Because it wasn't about G&M. I have the same right. Under the rules here. To express myself. As do you. Without you cutting me down. Please don't judge my posts according to. Your point of view.

GS your rules on reddit. Don't apply here. You don't control the narrative here."

Write whatever you want to write, NickeandDimed. No one (to my knowledge) is stifling you. Just because I may disagree with one of your opinions every now and then shouldn't be interpreted as an attempt to suppress your right to express them. I can't recall ever asking someone to be banned or shunned on this board, even if I've had heated discussion with them.
I think for the most part we're trying to understand our past in this cult, and it can get messy. For the most part we've remained civil...in stark contrast to the cult we came out of, and the administration that is now ravaging our country.

puddington Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We are definately on the same side here. I think
> those old posts quoted above are accurate. The
> names are out there. There are other victims that
> were hurt much more deeply that I’d rather not
> name in public. I’d rather not be someone who
> increases their pain. Perhaps those victims (when
> they are ready) would join this conversation and
> give their testimony. I’m pretty sure some of them
> are reading this forum.

Yes, I think so too.

NickelandDimed, I am not sure how I'd go about controlling the narrative without admin rights, but for what it's worth, you're free to talk about whatever or whomever you wish and I won't try to stop you or cut you down. I value your opinion and the long amount of time you've been on this forum offering reconciliation.

I can only speak for my own posts. I do make an honest effort to direct my condemnation to the very top, which isn't always easy. I see JRS and G&M as the root of the problem, responsible for all of the "bad eggs" and "sheep beaters" they have tried so hard to distance themselves from. They wrote the rules in this made up universe of theirs where Shiloh is the center and they're the godhead. They created the environment where this type of abuse could proliferate. To pretend otherwise is fraudulent on their part.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2018 03:38AM by GSchaeff.

And before it gets out there, I want everyone to know that I did NOT father six children from six different women during my brief stint as a pastor of a local church. That is a LIE!!!!
(attempt at humor)

GSchaeff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NickelandDimed, I am not sure how I'd go about
> controlling the narrative without admin rights,
> but for what it's worth, you're free to talk about
> whatever or whomever you wish and I won't try to
> stop you or cut you down. I value your opinion and
> the long amount of time you've been on this forum
> offering reconciliation.

true

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And before it gets out there, I want everyone to
> know that I did NOT father six children from six
> different women during my brief stint as a pastor
> of a local church. That is a LIE!!!!
> (attempt at humor)

Leave it to Changed Again to interject a little levity! ;-)

...and I hear all six kids were born during the same week. You’ve been very busy Mr. Changedagain. : )