TheycalledmeJonah wrote:
_____________________________
> Thanks for your kind words, Reep. My parents are
> still in the church, but their relationship with
> it has definitely changed quite a bit. I see them
> as being in the same place I am with the church -
> Love the people with all our hearts, but need
> something different for ourselves.
>
> Our relationship has changed for the better. When
> I moved here, they really let me go after what I
> thought was God's leading. They want that for all
> their kids. My relationship with my parents has
> also had its tough moments on account of me being
> out here. When a close family friend died, my
> parents were grieving, and Craig and Phyllis told
> me my parents were way too emotional and to not be
> dragged down by them (Its clear from this and
> other examples that Craig and Phyllis were trying
> to peel me away from my parents). Other times,
> Craig and Phyllis would tell me my parents were
> crazy, and I went along with it because I was
> brainwashed. I have since scrubbed my mind from
> all the lies they would feed me, and now have an
> even better relationship with my parents.

Thanks for replying, TheycalledmeJonah! So glad to hear that your relationship with your parents is better now. You mentioned that Shiloh leaders tried to discredit your parents and basically take their place. This is something that I observed many times while part of TLWF. Even if parents were also in the group, attempts were made to drive a wedge between them and their children, and/or to separate them by distance. I wonder if you can remember how you came to the revelation that you should live in Shiloh while you were still in school? I bet you received many hints from leaders that lead you to this conclusion.

So glad for you that you realized what was happening at such a young age. Welcome again and cheers!

I left the Living Word movement/ministry in a gradual, progressive fashion, long ago. It began at the time RD was fighting with Living Word, Inc., for rights to Coniah property and interests. They were in litigation of some kind. I recall receiving mail asking for receipts of our contributions and our position etc. I supplied neither, nor did i ever take a tax reduction. We were in our 20s, married and still pursuing post-secondary or post-grad education. We refused to become a part of the fight. To me Coniah went bad when it decided there had to be a brick building to replace the pole barn. For me it was Gideon thing. The humble meeting place helped ensure the pretenders were kept away. If you were searching for the truth of God in Christ, the status condition of the meeting place was irrelevant. It had a microphone, speakers and taping machine. You didnt need anything else except the anointing. And it was there.

As to the mistakes and misdeeds of John Robert Stevens, i was not an insider and thus not privy to his plans or projects, other than periodic contributions to Shiloh or his travel expenses. But we gave what we could afford to give. We were not rich.

As to leadership issues, whenever we becsme skeptical or leery, we simply acted accordingly without drawing attention. The ptoblem was we simply lacked information and/or an adequate understanding about the scope of the ministry. I was never an elder. But for four years i/we were passionately committed to the Living Word. Later, when Coniah busted up, we went with Ray Williams in Casa de Oro. My only frustration was the lack of information. But like all religious organization it is largely corporate/totalitarian like rule. That is why the GOP assupiduously cultivates Christian denominations. They largely are not democracies. So I acted according to the information and leading of the Spirit to us. I do recall RD visiting Casa de once. He stood with the elders and scrutinized the many of us who remained connected with JRS via Pastor Ray. I didnt care. There wasnt anything RD could do about anything. So I remained involved a few more years and in the early 80s, left. I periodically stopped in, even after Paster Ray left to pursue divine order as a Mormon. So i was involved with Living Word/Walk eight solid years. Despite this, he (Ray Williamson or Williams, always forgot which) was a good pastor - and had a real good library that he was very generous with. God bless him and his wife, Joan. So too for Tom Green. They did their best. I heard of complaints and faults. Green could be authoritarian. But so what. We blew it off and remained concentrated on the Word and the bonds of the body, church politics be damned. I found it absurd and boring. All too often, it amounted to a bunch of amateurs trying run and govern a religious organization. For me it was alwsys slways always about the Word, the prophecy, and learning to walk. All that Martha stuff was a snore.

I've probably said too much. The thrust of my contentions being, in balance the ministry of JRS and Living Word was s profound exposure to the Word and Spirit of God in Christ. By far and away superior to anything mainstream and establishmentarian. Was it cultish? Probably. But so was Christianity for a couple hundred years until reframed the order of the thingscand Westetn Civilization. Did it challenge our Reason and rational faculty? Decidely. But then so does Don Trump.

Acesanates wrote:
_________________________________
All that Martha stuff was a snore.

Maybe to you, acesandates. But probably not to Martha, or the daughters of John and Martha, or to the grandchildren. Pretty sure it was no snore for them.

In hindsight, I didn't appreciate "the Apostle to the Kingdom" praying for God to kill his wife, and teaching his followers to do likewise.

Maybe you didn't care about any of those things, but many people did. Many were hurt or destroyed by that "Apostolic Word".

Acesandates, it is my opinion that you were not in long enough to suffer the negative effects of the Living Word. You were injesting rat poison but you probably didn’t reach a toxic level. And Casa de Oro saved you. Ray filtered the word to reduce that toxic, cult crap from the LW teaching. If you had been living in LA, I think you would have had a very different relationship with the LW and JRS. Just my opinion.

Thank you Corboy for pointing out the numerous posts on this message board containing the problems and concerns relative to the ministries of JRS, G&M, and others. Some have written that JRS and G&M were/are charlatans, deceptive, liars, or having untreated mental health issues. Others, though far less in numbers, who adhere to the LW combo of Scripture and extra Biblical revelation, write that their every word was infallible. And then there are others who write that JRS made minor errors but was infallible with respect to his visions, prophecies and interpretation of the Bible.

I recall some of the auto suggestions from the ministries about folks who left and rejected the main tenants (usually the infallibility part and extra Biblical revelation stuff) of the LW:

In deception
Turned over to reprobate mind
Damned
It wasn't given for them to know, only us (the elect)
Lacked a revelation (the old standard)

I wonder if the idea of infallibility in JRS's divine order scheme is confusing to people and leading some people to feel it is the unpardonable sin and somehow blasphemous to question what they feel is the voice of the spirit. I think we should question. I have tried to look at the writings both pro and con about the LW teachings, the latter rain doctrines and the charismatic movement. I came across a blog by Francis Frangipane in which he defends the charismatic movement and belief in a second Pentecost outpouring while suggesting some of the other latter rain doctrine about the MSOG was excessive. Wow, Francis is doing his own research too. I also came across web pages devoted to challenging the brain farts (sorry teachings) of William Branham. On these websites, the current followers of Branham (who believe that God himself came down and indwelt Branham) go back and forth with the critics of Branham who are willing to expose error. What I saw over and over in these exchanges was the Branham followers didn't sincerely consider the questions of the Branham critics and/or try to answer the questions.

I like that the members of this forum are willing to expose the errors of the LW and challenge those who are apologists for JRS and G&M. It would helpful to the discussion, though, if the apologists would sincerely answer the questions posed by the moderator and posters.

Branch Davidian followers still believe David Koresch was Christ and await his resurrection. His followers included highly intelligent people. Who thought it was okay for their family members to have sexual relations with Koresch. From the outside. It's hard to wrap one's brain around that.

I have noticed this. In my reading about cults. The ex-follower apologists can't handle it. When their leader is critiqued. They can become uncivil, disrespectful, and otherwise disparaging of the those. Who expose errors, fraud, misconduct, etc.


[www.culteducation.com]

Have you considered the ordeal of Job? God had him suffer on a lark, on a bet with the Satan. It is a terrifying thing, wrote St. Paul, to fall into the hands of the living God. Meanwhile, 8 or 9 years involvement is plenty of active time in any religious/ideological movement or organization. A person is well steeped in any pattern and/or repetition of its concrete praxis, values, and social practices. Likewise, Ray Williamson wasnt filtering anything from JRS. Instead, he was inviting JRS down for weekend visits.

All of you, so expert on your alleged victimization. The Walk wasnt Sunday school. It was cultish, yes, but it wasnt coercive. When I left and i just left. I recall that at the break-up in San Diego many of us were told nothing, Left in the dark to our own devices and spiritually fend for ourselves. We were small potatoes. Did i feel aggrieved by that! Somewhat, and so we drifted, congregationally speaking, meeting in homes periodically for intercession or study, always in pursuit of the Spirit, administrative conflicts and issues be damned. We had tapes, This Weeks, the books. So did you. I had a job, a family, a car, an existence --- socio-political and economic. So did you.

Indeed the worst thing anyone could do was become too dependent on somebody else's revelation. JRS gave us a living word re the lordship of Jesus in our lives, and as a consequence the Holy Spirit fell on one and all, and there was the fellowship. For me, it was phenomenal. Utterly miraculous. Especially when compared to the more drearier squats of hell and metaphysical philosophy from which i was taken and tried to emerge. Mother of God! I can still recall the dangerous, futile incoherency of Camus and his deconstruction of the heroic in the face of the Absurd. The attempt at reconciling man to a Sisyphean acceptance of the limits of his individual fate. Or the development of this theme, this philosophical, existential ideal in The Stranger.

Even Nietzsche's hatred of Christian humility was preferable to such swill. Yet, the issues Camus tried to suppress, that of predestination, Providence, prophecy, fate, fortune, etc., had returned andvwere back on the table, despite the purported Platonic overthrow of the Gods via Reason and rationalizing thought then, and now, in the processes of Aristotelian science. Oh, then there was Marty Heidegger's bastardization of Thomist thought and the analytics of language. And it is this sort of crap that now governs post-modern man, the subversion of metaphysics, and civil discourse in western civilization.

So yeah, I took my chances with the Christian deity and truth of God as represented in the living word of JRS and collective worship in the spirit.

Hey folks, lets ignore A for awhile.

Two new members have joined the discussion:

Reepicheep and TheycalledmeJonah.

Attention given to A will distract from what our new members can share.

See, A is probably trying to bait us, rile up our emotions, get us distracted.

Quote

Meanwhile, 8 or 9 years involvement is plenty of active time in any religious/ideological movement or organization. A person is well steeped in any pattern and/or repetition of its concrete praxis, values, and social practices. Likewise, Ray Williamson wasnt filtering anything from JRS. Instead, he was inviting JRS down for weekend visits.

All of you, so expert on your alleged victimization. The Walk wasnt Sunday school. It was cultish, yes, but it wasnt coercive.

I agree, Corboy. Let’s not feed the troll.

corboy Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------

> Two new members have joined the discussion:
>
> Reepicheep and TheycalledmeJonah.
>
> Attention given to A will distract from what our
> new members can share.

Yes