A new thing? Yawn



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2018 04:56AM by puddington.

There's so much "new thing" in the LW. I remember the 1970's were banner years for new things. We eagerly awaited each new JRS tape and the next new thing God was doing. Funny that all the new things JRS said he (the anointed one) received from God were the teaching of the entire Latter Rain movement. And then there were the Latter Rain tape reels found in JRS's home. Awkward! JRS imposed on the congregation what he thought was the kingdom and another new thing called Divine Order and its hierarchy of those who were anointed from the new thing. And it was destructive. Imposing God's rule on others was not only unbiblical, but Jesus spoke against such a kingdom.

My hope for 2018 is God will do this new thing. Light bulbs will go on in people's heads. Members will recognize the unhealthy high demand requirements of the LW as false, man made, and not from God.

I was reading through some old emails from ex-pats and there seems to be some common steps that many take in their exit and recovery from TLWF, of which NickleandDimed mentioned a few. Usually there are ongoing issues with the actions of leaders that you know deep down are not right. This eventually leads to a crisis that causes the initial separation. Next there is the doctrinal discovery that the teachings do not line up with the teachings of Jesus, as you were initially led to believe. In other words, there are reasons why things are not functioning properly. Then there is the discovery that the leader(s) are not who they claimed to be. Up to this point, I kind of blamed myself for not paying close enough attention to what I had become involved with.

It’s the next step that really unleashes a torrent of emotion when you discover the leader knows exactly what they are doing and has been manipulating and taking advantage of their followers all along. It is no longer a nice guy who got off track, but someone who is deliberately causing suffering so that they can personally benefit. It can be decades before you can emotionally handle calling a spade a spade. It is shocking to find out that there are so many cult leaders doing exactly the same thing and causing the same damage. It is also interesting that God is the one who gets blamed, even though He had nothing to do with the situation. Christian means Christ-like, and these cult leaders do not represent Him at all. They are actually a picture of what He is not.

It is very similar to those who are the victim of infidelity - it’s difficult to learn to trust again. This is especially true where the infidelity completely blindsides you. Afterwards, when all your defenses are on high alert, it’s easy to assume faithful spouses do not even exist – which of course is not true. It is also similar to a child who is the victim of sexual abuse. It would be cruel to blame the child for what happened – though some abusers do. Nevertheless, as an adult, the child will have to take responsibility for their own healing. Most often, we do not get to choose what happens to us, but we do get to choose our response. I’ve had to work through the above, and it’s not easy.

I think perhaps the most difficult step is to become vulnerable enough to become a functioning part of a community of believers again. Our real healing comes when we re-attach to the life flow of the body. If you cut your finger off, eventually it will die if it is not reconnected. Like those who remarry, you do your best to go into the relationship with your eyes open, aware of things that you were not aware of before. Many have experienced much greater fulfillment after learning from the mistakes of previous unhealthy of relationships. Most successful businesses follow a few failures where the entrepreneur learned some hard lessons of what not to do. Perhaps it is the difficulty that makes it the narrow path that few find – not some special revelation. I happen to think the rewards are worth it.

lily rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's so much "new thing" in the LW. I remember
> the 1970's were banner years for new things. We
> eagerly awaited each new JRS tape and the next new
> thing God was doing. Funny that all the new things
> JRS said he (the anointed one) received from God
> were the teaching of the entire Latter Rain
> movement. And then there were the Latter Rain
> tape reels found in JRS's home. Awkward! JRS
> imposed on the congregation what he thought was
> the kingdom and another new thing called Divine
> Order and its hierarchy of those who were anointed
> from the new thing. And it was destructive.
> Imposing God's rule on others was not only
> unbiblical, but Jesus spoke against such a
> kingdom.
>
> My hope for 2018 is God will do this new thing.
> Light bulbs will go on in people's heads. Members
> will recognize the unhealthy high demand
> requirements of the LW as false, man made, and not
> from God.

I often wondered why there always had to be a "new" thing. What's wrong with tradition and the faith of our fathers? There seemed to be some kind of compulsive fascination with the newest thing "God" was doing, and it took the group to some crazy places. Wierd diets, herbal supplements, two-stepping, Christmas trucking, violent intercession, and copying the worship of charismatic churches (yes, really!) to name but a few. And it always seemed that moving on required stomping on whatever had come before. Drinking, smoking, cussing a blue streak...all to show that we weren't related to those horrible "religious" people. It makes me tired just thing about it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2018 10:54AM by Reepicheep.

Reepicheep said, “Drinking, smoking, cussing a blue streak...all to show that we weren't related to those horrible "religious" people.”

In hindsight, it is curious to see how normal healthy behavior was considered to be “religious”. In exchange for “freedom”, we tolerated another human taking the place of God and completely controlling every aspect of our lives. Coming out of a Baptist background, it made the legalism I was supposedly escaping seem like child’s play. It reminds me of a Longevity conference I once attended in Las Vegas where a large percentage of the doctors were smoking at breaks while lively discussing how to live longer. After leaving TLWF, I had an employee who was still involved go into a rage over my “religious attitude” for suggesting he show up to work on time – especially since he was a foreman and the rest of the guys couldn’t start without him. Those that leave become so evil!

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In hindsight, it is curious to see how normal
> healthy behavior was considered to be “religious”.
> In exchange for “freedom”, we tolerated another
> human taking the place of God and completely
> controlling every aspect of our lives. Coming out
> of a Baptist background, it made the legalism I
> was supposedly escaping seem like child’s play.
> It reminds me of a Longevity conference I once
> attended in Las Vegas where a large percentage of
> the doctors were smoking at breaks while lively
> discussing how to live longer. After leaving
> TLWF, I had an employee who was still involved go
> into a rage over my “religious attitude” for
> suggesting he show up to work on time – especially
> since he was a foreman and the rest of the guys
> couldn’t start without him. Those that leave
> become so evil!

Making another human being out to be your God does seem pretty religious to me too, Larry. There was so much crazy stuff going on in the name of not being "religious". The foreman you mentioned thought you were religious for asking him to get to work on time. There was a bar in one of the old classrooms off of the CLW sanctuary. There was much licentiousness condoned in the name iif not being "religious". Many people made a religion out of not being religious! Just don't forget to tithe. Now that would just be wrong!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2018 08:49AM by Reepicheep.

"There was much licentiousness condoned in the name of not being "religious"."

Cult leaders hate being accountable to objective guidelines of any kind, hate anything that is a reminder that there is something they cannot control, standards where they are falling short.

So...one cult building strategy is for the leader to persuade us that these moral guidelines are necessary but only for inferior people, timid people --not for bold spirits, not for us.

Or the leader states that moral guidelines are not necessary for persons who are highly evolved.

Or that there are persons at such a high level of holiness or realization that they are no longer accountable to conventional moral guidelines and that persons not at their level have no right to "judge" them or judge their actions.

Nothing's more effective than using charisma and group pressure to get us to
regard "religion" aka virtue as something behind the times, that keeps us childish,
unsophisticated, something that makes usridiculous.

In an old play, a king tells his supporters to
pressure a virtuous young woman to lower her moral standards -
so that he can seduce her.

Quote

"Go, call your Wives to counsel, and prepare
To tempt, dissemble, promise, fawn and swear,

"To make Faith look like Folly use your skill,

"Virtue an ill-bred crossness in the Will..."

[archive.org]

Once a trusted charismatic leader gets just a few disciples to share this
perspective, a group norm is created. Peer pressure can be applied to new
members to reframe social virtues as evidence of backwardness and inferiority.

Adroitly done, such a leader can trick us into regarding honesty, sobriety, moderation, a sense of fairness, a capacity to feel disgusted or embarrassed by degrading, loutish behavior as sources of shame. Look what Rajneesh did to his his followers. He reframed degradation and debauchery as liberation.

Aristotle stated that humans cannot be fully human unless capable of three things all of which are underminded by cultic leadership:

* Ability to reason and reflect
* Ability to moderate and regulate one's emotions and cravings
* Participation in a shared society whose members all engage in decision making
and vote on policy. decision making


This is how the tobacco companies create advertisements and events designed
to make tobacco use seem empowering and abstention as being a killjoy. Ditto for the alcohol adverstisements.

There's a similar strategy used by cult leaders in non Christian faiths - "Crazy Wisdom".

It is used to excuse vile, shocking behavior.

I am sorry to say I bought into this crap, because I stayed in some situations
for far too long.

In this scene, it is postulated that there is not one truth, but two truths, a truth that is higher, beyond all good and evil, beyond illusion, accessible and understandable *only* to those who are enlightened.

Relative truth is the world of illusions, consensual reality, the world of right and wrong.

The assumption is that the cult leader is so enlightened, so special that he/she cannot be held to standards of conventional morality.

Such a person may be rude, lewd, exploitative, harmful by conventional standards, but is actually dismantling our enslavement to conventional morality so that we can attain this same higher wisdom.

(Disgusted) This 'crazy wisdom' alibi was popularized by gurus, such as Chogyam Trungpa, Gurdjieff, Adi Da and Carlos Castaneda.

Gurdjieff called it the way of the sly man.

What is interesting is that these 'crazy wise' types all manage to acquire
wealth and are taken care of by entourages of disciples.

The crazy wise types
avoid suffering the consequences of their behaviors - they arrange for their disciples to make excuses for them.

Jesus suffered the consequences of his behavior alone. Had Jesus been a typical crazy wise guru, he would have tricked his beloved disciple into getting arrested and being crucified.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2018 01:06AM by corboy.

corboy said,” Cult leaders hate being accountable to objective guidelines of any kind, hate anything that is a reminder that there is something outside of their group that they cannot control, standards where they are falling short.

On the positive side of the pendulum, I found personal freedom in finally being willing to go back and do what Jesus said to do in the first place. If God wanted to instruct an average human, this is what He would tell them to do – and He’s really smart. There is nothing we could think of that He has not already considered. All the clever theology just muddies the water and is more like superstition than something that actually works. It also smokes out those who are unable to imitate the fruit of the Spirit. We do have a command to be fruit inspectors so we will know if it is a wolf in sheep’s clothing or not.

Some good examples are: love God above everything else, love even your enemies, let God take care of any judging, take care of the one that everyone else overlooks, and forgive others the way you would like to be forgiven. Hating Democrats, gays, Muslims, and people that don’t attend your particular church is so far off the radar it’s sad – and it produces bad fruit. 1 John is so subtle: “If a man say he loves God and hates his brother, he is a liar.” I’ve been accused of hating TLWF because of pointing out bad fruit or doctrinal errors. From my perspective, if I knew a bridge was out up ahead and didn’t say anything to someone to keep them from crashing, I would not be much of a friend. The lie that needs to be exposed is that if you reject the teaching of TLWF, you are rejecting God. You may actually be one step closer to finding God.

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cult leaders hate being accountable to objective
> guidelines of any kind, hate anything that is a
> reminder that there is something outside of their
> group that they cannot control, standards where
> they are falling short.
>
> So...one cult building strategy is for the leader
> to persuade us that these objective guidelines are
> necessary but only for inferior people, timid
> people --not for bold spirits, not for us.
>
> Nothing's more effective than using charisma and
> group pressure to get us to
> regard "religion" aka virtue as something behind
> the times, that keeps us childish,
> unsophisticated, something that makes
> us ridiculous.
>
> Once a trusted charismatic leader gets just a few
> disciples to share this
> perspective, a group norm is created. Peer
> pressure can be applied to new
> members so that they come to regard virtuous
> behavior as "religious" and
> therefore undesirable....
>
> There's a similar strategy used by cult leaders in
> non Christian faiths - "Crazy Wisdom".
>
> It is used to excuse vile, shocking behavior.
>
> I am sorry to say I bought into this crap, because
> I stayed in some situations
> for far too long.
>
> In this scene, it is postulated that there is not
> one truth, but two truths, a truth that is higher,
> beyond all good and evil, beyond illusion,
> accessible and understandable *only* to those who
> are enlightened.
>
> Relative truth is the world of illusions,
> consensual reality, the world of right and wrong.
>
> The assumption is that the cult leader is so
> enlightened, so special that he/she cannot be held
> to standards of conventional morality.
>
> Such a person may be rude, lewd, exploitative,
> harmful by conventional standards, but is actually
> dismantling our enslavement to conventional
> morality so that we can attain this same higher
> wisdom.

Wow, corboy. This just about sums up what happens in both Bible-based and other types of cults as well. That explains a lot. Create a new group norm outside of the parameters of conventional behavior. Then use peer pressure to ridicule people who have a problem with the new normal.

As I have mentioned before, my first experience with this strange upside-down world within the Walk was after Robert Kennedy's assasination. I discovered, to my horror, that JRS and his "intercessors" really believed that JRS had caused RFK's death in order to "save" the country from another Kennedy presidency. I imagine that he also felt that God, through him, had caused JFK's death as well.

I was also made aware, early on in the late sixties, that Martha was "evil" and that people were praying for her death years before the "violent intercession" began. Supposedly, people doing the praying were shown this by revelation from God. But, as corboy and others have said, cult leaders have ways of hinting at what they want their followers to know. People who are intuitive are able to follow the clues, and BAM, now they also have received a confirming revelation.

I don't know how I was able to ignore these gross examples of dark magical thinking. As I said, I was a teenager, following a parent into the trap of a strange mystical religion. Brother Stevens, as he was known in those days, was extremely convincing and charismatic. He knew how to play to his audience. If we heard of another leader saying such things, it would have been obviously wrong and evil. But if you were there, in that atmosphere, it all began to make some weird kind of sense. You began to want to please JRS, so you ignored and followed.

Hey All,

I've been a lurker for many months now, and I finally got an account. I'm hoping I can add a bit to the conversation since I have only very recently left the church. In fact, this Sunday will be my first time going to a non-TLWF church on my own accord. I am a young man in my mid 20's who has attended Shiloh for the last 8 years and also attended the church recently opened in North Libery, IA.

I was born into the church in San Diego, and moved to Shiloh when I was 17. I finished up my last year of High School at Midprairie in Wellman, IA right next to Kalona. I've really appreciated being able to read all of your posts here. It really helped open my eyes to things that non of the congregants ever hear - The faults of the leadership.

As I grew up in the Shiloh church from a teenager to an adult, I would spend a lot of my time helping out with maintenance, music, and other work day activities. I would talk to Craig and Phyllis about things in my life and they would give their "input." A lot of the time, I would disagree with their input and end up doing it anyway because I was out here in Iowa alone, away from my family. They were really the closest thing to family I had for a while. If I disagreed with them, I was afraid that I would lose that sort of closeness.

Submitting relationships was really hard for me. I would talk to them if I wanted to take someone out on a date and they would say "Sure go out and have fun, but just stay friends." I would "hang out" with a person for months on end without it ever going anywhere because I would "Keep it just friends" until I lost interest in them and cut it off. That was always super unnatural. Luckily, I met my current girlfriend 9 months ago (when I was still attending Shiloh) and decided not to submit it, and she is amazing!

Also, sorry if this seems like rambling (it is)

This last summer I was already super burnt out with Shiloh because they had things going on at Shiloh constantly and I didn't have time to go do fun stuff that I wanted to do. There has been a lot of work on the Shiloh Cemetery (which is now called the Memorial Park). I'd get asked constantly to work all day on a Saturday and you say yes, because you don't feel the freedom to say no, even when pastors and leaders are constantly saying "Don't do anything if you feel obligated."

I know this complaint may bounce right off you all here because I know that the working conditions that you all experienced was probably much more severe.

I also started to wake up to the fact that I had a lot of differences in opinion than the majority of the church. The church is strictly conservative, and I have primarily democratic beliefs. I laugh every time I remember when Craig said in front of the church,

"Trump announced that today is the national day of prayer. You can say what you want about the guy, but when something happens, he turns to prayer"

Thats such obvious bullshit, I can't believe he fell for that. Obvious PR move.

Also, this last summer camp, Gary H brought a word where he talks about how he is not ready to drink the cup that sits before him. He spoke about how Jesus was able to drink the cup that the Lord put before him, but Gary was not ready. Then at a shabbat the following Friday, everyone was prophecying things like "We prophecy we drink the cup! We are ready to drink the cup!" and I was stunned. I looked around the room and thought "Did anyone listen to anything Gary said? He said he wasn't ready... why are you saying the things that you're saying? Do you even know what you're saying?"

I'm going to keep rambling on...

Another motive for me to not be associated with this church was the thing of control...

I was talking to Craig about a band that I was going to start playing with, and he said "Don't tell me you're gonna go out and become a fucking musician. That's not who you are." This really fucked with me. He obviously didn't want me spending time outside of Shiloh.

Anyway, I moved away from Kalona in October to Coralville, which is closer to my job, and further away from Shiloh. I feel so free, but I'm having to make some new friends because I just don't see the other ones who are in the church as much.

If any of you want to know about anyone or anything in the modern TLWF churches, feel free to ask.


Thanks