Reepicheep:
Changedagain, did Gary make a huge deal about not celebrating Christmas when he was your pastor? Just curious.

I don't recall him making a big deal about it. The main focus was on the violent intercession for the apostle, and the judgement of his enemies. Martha was identified as the nephilim during one of our special services. That stuck in my mind. No matter how many times I had waited on the Lord and prayed for the revelation of the identity of the nephilim, it was never revealed to me. And to hear that it was actually his wife...was quite startling
Gary ran the church with an iron fist. You didn't cross him. I think I spent most of my time hiding out in the tape recording room...when I wasn't working on maintaining the church facility. For a few years I lived in an adjacent part of the church with a 5-6 other "brothers."

Glory Days...I think Springsteen wrote a song about it :)

corboy Wrote:
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>
> *Disciples tell devotional stories about the
> leader. Perhaps the leader does not mention these
> incidents. But--disciples who are in favor with
> the leader keep the miracle chatter going.
>

That's exactly what happened to me in my first communal home experience, My roommate had joined in the 60's, and for a short time was part of the Blix inner circle. She went to sleep with a tape recorder beside her head and I recall her waking up in the middle of the night to change the tape cassette. I recall picking her brain constantly about JRS. And she loved telling the stories. The woman is still a member of TLWF. On the other hand a few years later I was befriended by a young woman who was an independent thinker who even read non LW literature. She had her own opinions about JRS that did not border on idolatry and she wasn't shy to share them. The Valley Church was so large that independent thinkers, at least at that time in mid 70's, weren't targeted for excommunication. I think the Valley church climate at that time might have been opposite to what changedagain experienced under Gary's rod of iron. Thank goodness the expats in the forum are now free to be independent thinkers!

NickleandDimed I'm glad you liked the Star of Bethlehem video. It's fun to watch at Christmas if you choose to celebrate Christmas. But it's content is a theory and not without critics. There are many theories about the Star, but I think it's fascinating to explore what people think about it.

corboy Wrote:
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> Here are a few pink flags to add to Rick Ross' red
> flags list.
>
>
>
> A leader may come across as benevolent and loving.
> However, that leader may
> have senior disciples who inflict punitive
> discipline. These higher ranking
> disciples act as enforcers, and also as
> gatekeepers. This preserves the leader's
> benevolent loving reputation.
>
> The word 'reputation' is key. After all, the
> leader permits these enforcers
> to do his or her bidding.
>
Wasn't it in the mid 70's when Gary got a gun permit. That gave him access to travel with John's entourage. Assume a protector role. Increasingly Gary's authority grew to where he was doing some of John's bidding regarding the Kingdom Businesses. Gary could be ruthless in doing John's bidding. That and the Blix girls, especially Marilyn, really stepped up their gatekeeper role to protect John.

"When you are reeling from a shame attack you have difficulty remembering all this (the red flags)" Ha Corboy very true.

Invisible - hearing differently??? As if there was a culture that encouraged divergent thinking??

There was nothing even close to that allowed. Ask the wrong question and you're out.

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reepicheep:
> Changedagain, did Gary make a huge deal about not
> celebrating Christmas when he was your pastor?
> Just curious.
>
> I don't recall him making a big deal about it. The
> main focus was on the violent intercession for the
> apostle, and the judgement of his enemies. Martha
> was identified as the nephilim during one of our
> special services. That stuck in my mind. No
> matter how many times I had waited on the Lord and
> prayed for the revelation of the identity of the
> nephilim, it was never revealed to me. And to hear
> that it was actually his wife...was quite
> startling
> Gary ran the church with an iron fist. You didn't
> cross him. I think I spent most of my time hiding
> out in the tape recording room...when I wasn't
> working on maintaining the church facility. For a
> few years I lived in an adjacent part of the
> church with a 5-6 other "brothers."

OMG, changedagain! That sounds like a nightmare. I never got the idea of praying for someone else's death. I remember being in high school when RFK was shot. I stayed home from school the next day, thinking that attending the Thursday morning service would make me feel better. While there I was horrified to hear the intercessors chatting about how JRS had caused RFK's and possibly JFK's deaths through prophecy and prayer. This seemed shocking and revolting to me at the time.

But like corboy said, "The point here is you keep listening to these stories.

Do this and your sense of possibility changes. Things that seem shocking or revolting no longer do so. You've gotten accustomed to this."

And praying for Martha Stevens to die? Really? If a minister is having some sort of midlife crisis and has the hots for his secretary, get a divorce, for God's sake! Don't get the whole congregation to violently pray for her to die. That sounds like witchcraft, not Christianity.

Don't even get me started on communal homes, changed and lily rose. Gross! But we did all these things because we became acculturated slowly but surely. It's hard to believe now, isn't it?

Invisible Wrote:
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> John Stevens,
>
> He brought extensive historical teaching about the
> origin of Christmas and several other holidays. He
> brought Scriptural references out of the Old
> Testament to support what he believed gave insight
> to how the ancient worshipper's of God, being
> warned by the prophets of old - against the people
> being caught up in the worship of the other god's
> - in the nations where-in they were living.
>
> However in teaching this history - which was not
> easily accessible in the late 1960's and early
> 1970's - with out research and study - as it is
> today - John did not require any one to stop
> celebrating Christmas in their own personal lives.
>
> John expressed his conviction and the
> responsibility he believed he carried for the
> place where the people came together to worship
> God - he expressed to the people at a service why
> he could not with good conscience - set up,
> decorate and give a place in the church and
> sanctuary to a Christmas tree. He gave reason to
> why he held this conviction. And when he expressed
> ( after sharing with the church what he has
> learned from his research and study) - why no
> tree would be in the sanctuary beginning that
> year, he said to the people that he did not
> believe God would hold any one accountable - if
> they chose to celebrate Christmas - if they did
> not have the understanding needed to know how it
> would be offensive to God. But John spoke that he
> held himself accountable to God as the pastor, for
> what he came to believe honored God.
>
> So at the church there-after, there was no
> Christmas tree in the church- all the years he
> lived - but whoever chose to or not to celebrate
> Christmas- this was up to them.
>
> John made a book available (free) to the church
> members - which has had many revisions since the
> original version - titled - " Babylon Mystery
> Religion" by Ralph Woodrow.
>
> John also recommended that one should do a further
> and an independent research of actual ancient and
> world history on their own to gain more
> understanding.

He did it to control us---period. He himself had a christmas tree in his home and santioned the Christmas truck. It all came from latter rain and do you honestly think anyone--of the young people at the time would have been anything but militant against Christmas? It ruined Christmas for my family and so many others---because what they heard from us in the "Walk==ooh no it is pagan - it is bad---bla bla bla. Invisible how can you even say it was okay or it was done from some conviction other than a desire to fuck with peoples heads--he knew what he was doing exactly. Sorry--he seems to be the sacred cow who could do no wrong and he truly did wrong to thousands of lives.

I am sorry that this is what I believe to be true. There is nothing good in the fact that he had to mess with peoples families--and take their offerings--and their time---and pull their devotion away from the core family--setting himself in as the go to guy instead of the poor fathers. Okay I will stop--it just makes me upset that after all the destruction that John Stevens would be excused because of integrity---really. That makes me sick.

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the early stages of training a hunting dog you
> have to give lots of explicit instructions.
>
> Once the dog is thoroughly trained and knows his
> or her master, only small signals are needed
>
>
> In a well run cult, things reach a point where the
> leader does not need
> to give explicit orders.
>
> All he or she need do is drop hints.


Exactly---it is automatic--disowning spouses and children -- it is a well run cult.

lily rose Wrote:
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> Great to hear from you again dbc! I didn't know
> that about the Iowa Church. Rebels without a
> Claus.


That is too funny Lily

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Invisible Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > We can find fault with anyone or anything if we
> > choose to do so - we can even cry about how we
> > were robbed of all the presents we didn't buy,
> > give or get because some one told us not to
> > celebrate Christmas (easy now) - or one might
> ask
> > - why did one join the church, if they had to
> give
> > up something that was extremely important to
> them
> > or why would one give up was what they believed
> > in?
>
> Invisible, I am happy for you that your family was
> able to live and let live and remained intact. I
> can assure you that many posters on this message
> board had the opposite experience.
>
> I came into the church as a young person living at
> home. I didn't "decide" to join the Walk, and
> neither did many other young people. One parent
> joined the cult and one didn't. I'm not sad over
> presents. I'm sad because of a divorce and lost
> time and memories with parents and other loved
> ones who are no longer living.
>
> I have the impression that you are a JRS
> apologist, feeling that the Walk only went astray
> after your "apostle" was no longer leading. I
> don't know what to say to you, other than that was
> not my experience. I believe that JRS was a cult
> leader who ruined the lives of so many. He
> instituted the practice of arranged marriages and
> arranged divorces. He tore families apart. He
> taught us to pray for the death of his enemies. He
> taught us that we alone were God's chosen people
> and all other churches were Babylon. If someone
> dared disagree with him, he branded them a
> nephilim. That person was shunned in no uncertain
> terms. He led people to invest their life savings
> in idiotic ventures like the Nevada mine.
>
> Here's a quote from "The Path", a show about a
> cult on Hulu: "Once you've seen the freak show,
> you can't unsee it." You apparently never saw the
> freak show.
>
> Also, blamimg the victims for joining is a low
> blow.

Well said Reepicheep