Sometimes divorce is the very best solution to a bad situation. People change and become dissatisfied with their partners, leading to bad choices and a lot of pain in some cases; a lot of joy and release in others.

I am so fortunate to have been in love with, and tolerated by the same woman for 38 years, but if she decided to leave me I would want her to be happy with someone else, not waste away the rest of her days in celibacy because of some misguided bible author.

Compassion is the best thing Jesus taught IMHO. Being non-judgmental is another. I vote for compassion because we all have enough judgment around us in our daily lives.

Slandjit, your insight on the level of chauvinism in the bible is not unoticed. Someone should do something about that :)

slandjt Wrote:
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> How convenient, Larry. You repented and God gave
> you a fresh start? Give me a break. I notice
> your example was of the woman caught in adultery
> that was brought to Jesus. I wonder what happened
> to the man she was caught in adultery with.
> Apparently in your Jesus world, men aren't held to
> the same standard--as along as they repent. How
> refreshing that "there is no way you could
> possibly claim that you have not lusted in your
> heart after another women." You got divorced and
> moved on with your new wife, for whom you are
> grateful. Well, I am here to tell you that
> ex-wives are the ones who raise the children. We
> don't have time to learn to open our hearts and
> trust again. We're too busy working full-time,
> taking care of wounded children and trying to
> survive. What exactly does God want to restore?
> I don't think God has anything to do with this.
> Please stop preaching.

Very well put, good points worth pondering. I also wonder how the other half of that situation was delt with. It is things like that which call in to question the whole thing. But then, one of my problems in TLW was asking too many questions. For me it was curious poking. For them it was rebellion and dissent.

rond,
you wrote:

I am so fortunate to have been in love with, and tolerated by the same woman for 38 years, but if she decided to leave me I would want her to be happy with someone else, not waste away the rest of her days in celibacy because of some misguided bible author.
-----------------------------------------

I may be misreading the content of what you wrote so if it does not apply just disregard my response to what you wrote - except for the congratulations.

rond,

I think you are probably fooling yourself. If your wife left you after 38 years of being there for you by putting up with you ( tolerating you for 38 years) - I believe you would be devastated even torn in two and finding it most difficult to cope with the loss of her love for you ( especially to another man.) Is it possible that she is still having to put up with you - that you are still doing what you want to do no matter how it affects her and you just feel unworthy of her? Sounds like it might be time for you to start doing your part - in giving her what she has been waiting for all these years - that's love. Not forfeiting her to another man because she deserves to be happy.

On the other hand, Congratulations on 38 years, must be something very special you have together, in your love for one another, as a husband and wife!

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The wounds from broken marriages & families, a
> direct fruit of being immersed in LW culture for
> so many years, is still fresh. The conversations
> we have here reflect that. At least, for the most
> part, we're not pretending to be something we're
> not...unlike the phoniness of what we came out of.


Some people are not comfortable talking about their feelings. Often people need to tell their story. Including expressing the anger over and over as part of their healing. People want to help. But they don't know how. Yesterday, we heard from a few posters. They don't need more preaching.

slandjt - I think all of us came out of TLWF with a heightened sense of a BS detector, but is it possible it may be a little skewed? Anyone that has been wounded is acutely aware of the types of things that have caused them suffering and will make every effort to avoid them in the future. Not all men want to oppress women. That’s certainly not in my “Jesus world” as you call it. I don’t think it was in Jesus’ world either. He upset many social norms when it came to women. My brother, who grew up in TLWF, was on the other side of multiple affairs, and honestly believes a faithful woman does not exist. He’s not even interested in dating because he doesn’t want to go through that pain again. Of course it’s not true, but that’s his honest view through a wounded lens.

I really am involved in a number of activities to help single moms and their kids. I mentioned one, and my motives and character are immediately questioned because through a wounded lens it’s not possible that it could be as simple as I actually care about them and want to help. There must be some ulterior motive – even when you wait 17 years to tell your old friends what you’ve been up to. It’s easy to see a need and recommend something be done about it, and quite another to roll up your sleeves and go to work yourself. For one thing, you have the added load of wading through the critics to do it. It seems that no matter what you do or say, someone will twist it and be offended - even the good stuff.

However, I would say that I didn’t care as much as I do now about single moms and kids when I was in TLWF – I was busy serving the leadership. You would think that with a woman leading the group, it would be a primary emphasis. Who do you think was actually behind determining if there was an unequal yoke in your marriage? Legally, you could not say Marilyn wanted a divorce, but you were aware of her opinion and she after all was the witness of the Holy Spirit. Who do you think was removing all threats to her being number one in your husband’s life - including ahead of you? It was not being directed from an oppressive male hierarchy. BTW, I truly am sorry for the pain you suffered from your husband’s affair. I understand much more than you might think. There’s much more to my personal story than looking for greener grass – it just doesn’t fit into TLWF spin, nor would it be helpful to my ex at this point. We both learned valuable lessons the hard way and have made adjustments so we don't go down that path in the future.

Nickle said people don't always know how to help. I once received a harsh rebuke from a friend for "flaunting what I perceived were blessings in my life....and something about if only my friend would get their s**t together...." I was told to read Job. Ugh...it's too long. So I read a few synopsis of Job's three friends. It has been a guide for me because you never know what struggles your friends are going through while you are flaunting your blessings. Here though on this forum we pretty much do know what struggles are friends are going through so we can and often do empathize. If you don't know the story of Job, he experienced profound loss. His three friends came to see him and they did three things right: they came to him, they empathized with him, and they spent time with him. All of that was helpful to Job until his friends opened their big mouths and started giving speeches to Job. Those speeches were like a knife in Job's wounds.

I don't always do this, I try but it's not always easy: When we are willing to enter into the pain and suffering of a friend, we follow the example of Christ.

"When we are willing to enter into the pain and suffering of a friend, we follow the example of Christ."

Thank you for the reminder lily rose!

Invisible wrote: I may be misreading the content of what you wrote...

Hi Invisible. Above was my clumsy attempt at self deprecation. Truth be known; I've been married to my best friend for 38 years, and we still adore one another.
If she were to leave me I'd be shattered.

What I was getting at is that Christianity views marriage through a lens that sets the bar unreasonably high. Sometimes relationships don't work out. They just aren't a match, and staying together causes unimaginable pain to both parties as well as the family.

I believe the expectation that God wants people to suffer unnecessarily in a bad marriage is an invention of men to control women.

That's all I was trying to say. Thanks for allowing me to elaborate!

Invisible I liked your post on coming to terms with divorce/remarriage. Your exchange with rond reminded me. I have friends who stay in their crummy marriage. They say they don't want to be single. Even though the bad marriage is draining and depressing for them. Martha must have asked herself. Is it really worth staying. She was 60+ years old. Gutsy.

rond wrote:

Hi Invisible. Above was my clumsy attempt at self deprecation. Truth be known; I've been married to my best friend for 38 years, and we still adore one another.
If she were to leave me I'd be shattered.

What I was getting at is that Christianity views marriage through a lens that sets the bar unreasonably high. Sometimes relationships don't work out. They just aren't a match, and staying together causes unimaginable pain to both parties as well as the family.

I believe the expectation that God wants people to suffer unnecessarily in a bad marriage is an invention of men to control women.

That's all I was trying to say. Thanks for allowing me to elaborate!
-------------------------------------------

Hi rond,

A holy hug - for you!
Thank you for your clarification.

I was born serious. My apology - I think I see a kind of humor you intended in "self deprecating." But I had to look up the definition in order to understand better the meaning of what you were expressing in part of what you were posting relating to self deprecation.

One of the things that has concerned me is the idea that marriages are able to be destroyed - because as part of the marriage vows given to marrying couples in TLW, is to vow themselves to be dedicated to the Lord above and over the importance of their own union in marriage. One has to place a lesser value on themselves and potentially discount their relationship with each other and it is unrealized by the marrying couple. So in reality - this idea they hold - does not really allow them to seal fully their union as married - with each other. It leaves a door open for a 3rd party to get in the middle of their relationship. The couples marriage is believed to be valid becaue it appears outwardly to based on being committed to the Lord.

But I do not believe it has anything to do with the Lord - it is like thinking that one really is loving the Lord by forfeiting their relationship with their spouse. The spouse doesn't have to be having an affair with any one else for it to be "Amoral."

And as you probably have seen at some time - marriage check outs and allowing a couple to marry - is often based on the ministry determining that both couples are equally committed to being dedicated to the Lord. And forbidding of marrying has been exercised as well - which is clearly defined in the Scriptures as being man made religion.

Now I also think that some couples - don't really give themselves to the vows they are given in this area - they just let the ministry say what they want to say and they marry each other. But if they are allowing other people ( as a designated relationship ) which oversees their personal lives being a married couple - they have an open door to a third party ( which may meddle ) and a marriage is not 3 people.

I was not addressing abuse or mental cruelty in relationships or infidelity by some of the things I wrote- that's a whole other matter.

I do not think morality can be legislated - people will do what they want to do - you can only try to tell them about what's on that road and the consequences they may face if they travel it.
I do like Proverbs 31. A parent talking to a son about life.