I wonder if John Elway’s contract bonuses for Peyton Manning have provisions for “a non-dual tie?” Just like the coin flip that didn’t flip, it’s unchartered territory.

Drinking a little too early. That's uncharted territory.

I am wondering why so many of us are hiding behind an alias? I really wish we would disclose our true identities, to make all of this a bit more up front. We have nothing to fear, except for ourselves.

I am the former Jan Whitwer. I was married to Ray Whitwer. I was in the walk in the 70's, phasing out of it and out of my marriage in the early 80's.

I was in the walk in Campbell, Ca. under Howard Klein, and moved to SD after hooking up with Ray, in sort of an "arranged marriage." Yes, arranged marriages were quite common as it was frowned upon to date or mingle with any "Outsider or Old Order" people. Choice in Life Partners was quite limited.

Life was very strange at that time. I tried to be obedient. I went with the communal living movement, to the total Earth Mother who made all food out of scratch, providing the household with nutritious and healthy food. I watched as we invested our meager savings into a fiasco called the Holder Mine Investment or some such fraudulent entity. I had my eyes "Wide Open". It produced a huge amount of angst.

In any case, back to my original thought.............why don't we shed our coverings which we hide behind, and reveal ourselves to one another? I think it is time. We all share much in common. Why not put a face to it all. I don't think there is anyone or anything to fear in doing so.

Jan, I choose to use an alias because I have friends and family still in the cult. Presently they still talk to me. If I "came out", I would be totally shunned and cut off. I'd rather not do that just yet.

Everyone's situation is different.

jan w. lane wrote: “Why not put a face to it all. I don't think there is anyone or anything to fear in doing so.
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I’m not so sure that would be very wise publically. The moderator would know more. I used to be a very trusting person but quickly learned some of the people of God will ruin or kill you thinking their doing God a service.

There was a girl named Kathy McDermott from Salt Lake City who moved to a church in Walnut Grove (Creek) ? California in the early 1970’s that was under Howard Klein. I think she married someone with the last name of Waller. Does that ring any bells?

Jan --

I remember you by name but can't tie a face to it al these years. I married one of those "old order" (Nazarene in this case) girls from outside The Walk. RD and company seemed OK with it, but they never put me up in front of "the old man" for a check out (thank God for small favors, I guess). For me it was the best decision I ever made, still married.

That was the second time I brought a girl in from "outside" the first time the relationship got slaughtered by RD. One of the main reasons that I seriously question the Pentecostal "cold reading parlor game" that so many of the so-called "ministries" enjoyed playing. Looking back, in scaring that poor girl off, RD probably did me a favor :-).

Jewel

The Jewel when you mentioned the "cold reading" parlor game, that reminds me of psychic hotlines, were you call in and you have to give your birth date, they just type it in a computer and come up with a natal horoscope and read off enough to keep somebody's interest till the bank account is empty. They didn't use that method did they?

AD --

It sort of went like this: Some “ministry” would have you up on the platform with their hands on your head and the “Lord” would show them things (supposedly). This was one of my first experiences when I came to a service. There was a visiting pastor; Harold Williams, who I really thought told me a lot of things he couldn't have possibly known. However, looking back, most of it was rather general i.e. you were treated poorly as a child, you have a confidence problem, blah, blah... Well if you tell that to just about any kid, he or she will likely remember a situation where that could be true. Particularly since we were already “primed” that is, we wanted to believe.

If you want to see a demonstration of this sort of thing -- look at the YouTube video "Debunking the movie Holy Ghost". There is a lot written about cold reading on the web. In fairness, it is certainly possible for the Lord to reveal things to ministers to help provide guidance, but I would expect to have seen a lot more positive results and I never really did. And there were a lot of misses. To the extent that I now think that someone should have put large banner at the back of the sanctuary that said "Hey... don't immediately assume that that little voice in the back of your head is the voice of God". :-)

BTW: It wasn't only in The Walk that I saw this. I saw the infamous “Reverend Ike” do it once when I went to one of his "revival meetings" when he came through town. Katherine Kuhlman would do it as well. This is why I referred to it as a Pentecostal parlor trick. I still tend to give people the benefit of the doubt (except for Ike – a first class Charlatan IMO). I think that the ability to hear the lord is something they (obviously) desire to cultivate. That puts them in a mode where they practice it and gradually get better – thinking of the misses as “static” in the channel, I guess. Ultimately the good ones get pretty good.

I also the fear of this perceived ability was part of what helped keep people in line. i.e. you do something “bad” somehow these guys will find out – God will tell them. There were a lot of head trips being laid down in those days, and looking back on all of it, it never made anyone grow closer to God.

Jewel

Getting back to the question regarding Kathy McDermott, yes, I knew her. In fact, I lived for a time in a sister's house next to the church in Campbell. Kathy lived in the house. There was a Miriam who lived there as well, and I believe a girl by the name of Cheryl or Chris, and then there was Sue Madeiros that married Howie Klein. Kathy M. did marry one of the Waller boys. I cannot recall his first name. I knew the Waller family well, especially Aleta. Aleta married Dan White, but I don't know where she is now, and I don't believe they are still together.

I do understand why most here on the forum prefer to remain anonymous. I don't understand the practice of ex communication which happens almost universally when someone makes the decision to marry outside of the circle, or to leave the organization. We are referred to as contaminants. This in itself is the cause, I believe, for carrying the burdens of resentment and hurt.

In any case, I sincerely hope that we can all come to some closure with respect to all of this. We were all so young then, and now we have become middle aged, or even elderly. I think that looking back on the past has both value and futility. We have to learn from our experiences and not dwell on them, in order to fully engage the present and what lies ahead.

There certainly is something therapeutic about sharing our stories and then coming to the realization that our responses to what we have walked through are perfectly normal. It is certainly much easier to do that anonymously and it is nice to know you are in good company. I did seek professional help after leaving TLWF, and one of the big benefits was to find out I wasn’t crazy. Like PTSD, the human mind and emotions can only handle so much abuse before they begin to breakdown. I chose to use my real name from the beginning just to try and keep myself honest. If I was going to point out areas in TLWF that I thought were damaging, I wanted to do it in the same way as I would if I were face to face – which I have also done. It’s the illusions that are scary – not the real thing.

I think at some point it stops being as much a personal recovery issue and you just want to hold up what Jesus said as a plumb line. People can look at the teachings of TLWF and the teachings of Jesus and see if they match for themselves. He is the only one that can heal and transform us anyway. The part I want to help clear up is that much of TLWF teaching is twisted and not representative of Jesus at all. There are reasons for the bad fruit that can be understood and avoided in the future. A walk with God is a delightful thing, not something to be avoided. My encouragement is that nothing that Jesus taught has become obsolete. The glimpses of the Lord we experienced in TLWF are still there and become even brighter when you peel away the false.

I can honestly say that I’ve found a much deeper relationship with the Lord than I ever experienced in TLWF. To someone that is suffering, that may seem arrogant – like the person going through financial struggles (which we all do at some point in our lives) being told about the prosperity gospel. My wife cannot understand why I would spend the hours I do communicating with ex-Walkites. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard, “Just get over it and move on.”

I think I have gotten over it and moved on. When you sense His heart, you can’t see a wounded sheep off by themselves and not feel compassion – even if you are just a sheep yourself. You just go where they are, whether it’s a nice place or not. Often you have to patiently wade through the talons of self-preservation where you appear to be the enemy. Ezekiel 34:4-6 says, “You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.” Those verses mean much more to me now than they ever did in the past – even if it involves some lonely hikes and misunderstood motives. God loves His sheep enough to lay down His life for them and He doesn’t want to leave even one behind.