pbxguy – When I used the word “fact” it was more of a figure of speech intended to convey what most Christians would understand Jesus had said about himself. Obviously I touched a sore spot in your belief system. To suggest that “the Bible has failed to stand up to scientific scrutiny in almost every instance” is also an opinion and not a fact. A couple of books you might consider reading are “The Case For Christ – A Journalist’s Personal Investigation of the Evidence for Jesus” by Lee Strobel and “God’s Undertaker – Has Science Buried God” by John Lennox - if you are willing to have your worldview challenged. Unfortunately, facts do not change the lens through which you view the facts – that’s a heart or spirit issue and as the New Atheists would have you believe, we don’t even have a spirit. In spite of reading “The God Delusion” by Richard Dawkins, I’m still a Christ follower – sorry. Actually, TLWF (so I at least mention it) was a much rougher struggle than Dawkins.

Here’s what I mean by a lens: if a scientist observes stick figures on a cave wall, it is conclusive evidence of intelligent design and not natural selection. If the same scientist observes a 3.5 billion letter sequence in the human genome, it is evidence of natural selection and not intelligent design. I didn’t buy a single lottery ticket for a 1.5 billion dollar prize because in all my intelligence I did not think I could come up with the right 5 numbers in any order, much less the right 3.5 billion letters in a particular sequence. Fortunately, natural random selection is way more intelligent than I am. The fact that we are here is “proof” to the scientist – good luck repeating it as true science says is necessary for the scientific process.

I look at the same information and conclude there was an obvious input of information from the outside of evolution or a Creator - evidenced by the fact we are here and the mathematical odds for the human genome coming into existence by natural selection alone exceed the number of atoms estimated to be in the entire universe. And further, what are the odds this happened on the first try and if not, where are all the random mistakes (not counting Trump)? Same facts, different lenses and different conclusions. The scientist is “Bright”, as the New Atheists like to call themselves, and I’m just a religious idiot who refuses to look at the facts – at least in their belief system. I would suggest neither are true. By the way, the head of the human genome project started out an atheist and ended up a Christian. There are plenty of Christians that love science and plenty of scientists that love Christianity – in spite of what Dawkins may tell you, they are not mutually exclusive.

AD --

That would be pretty much my feeling as well. Once you assume a leadership position, then by definition you develop a "following". There will always be the opportunity (and therefore the temptation) of take advantage of that. So many of them have.

Jewel

TheJewel,
Do you have a particular area of interest about Jesus? "Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes" by Kenneth Bailey is fascinating from a historical and cultural standpoint and it deals with early church history. I was shocked to find out Jesus was not a blond haired, blue eyed, effeminate man with a halo who lived in America and supported the religious right by taking up offerings - actually, that's not really in the book. The average Jew was far more literate in the Torah from a very young age than I realized. Also, the relationships disciples had with their rabbis will remind you of DRs in TLWF - except they didn't claim to be Christ in the flesh and had a much more solid biblical foundation.

Interesting reading about the whole Nevada mine mess in the Nichols paper. One thing I discovered, is that Nichols presents an alternate reason as to why JRS stayed in Shiloh so much in 1978. I had always been told that he was hiding out from the divorce lawsuit (with Martha). But Nichols presents a whole different theory. He was hiding out from a court felony fraud case that was going down in San Diego against Paul Holder and the mining companies. I suspect they would have liked him to present testimony. But apparently he laid low and avoided it all.

Previously ------ “3.5 billion letter sequence in the human genome.”
--------------------

Instead of guilt/blaming mankind for supposedly screwing up in the “Garden of Eden” as do some apostles, why not have the Great Architect tweak one or two letters somewhere in the 3.5 billion sequence and rectify the problem? Avoid the whole nightmare altogether in the name of efficiency.

In answer to your question, TheJewel--"I am curious what people think with regard to JRS, do you think he deliberately set out to deceive?", I say yes, Stevens deliberately and consciously deceived us from day one. If he ever had one genuine thought that he was a spokesperson for God, if he believed in the scriptures that he purported to, he would have denounced himself a thousand times as a false prophet well before most of us were even involved in the 70s. The mine is an excellent example of the compete lack of integrity the man possessed. It is a black and white matter--if what he said is incorrect he does not get to claim he spoke for God. If he was not God's mouthpiece then he was faking it, and everything he says is suspect. I suppose that is particularly clear to those who lost their life savings in the mine debacle, and I notice they did not stick around to see what else he would pull. We might suppose that they had a clearer revelation of Stevens's true nature well before the rest of us.

Pbxguy--right on with everything in your last post.

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheJewel,
> Do you have a particular area of interest about
> Jesus? "Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes" by
> Kenneth Bailey is fascinating from a historical
> and cultural standpoint and it deals with early
> church history.

LB

Thanks, I put this book in my Amazon cart for next time I order. I read a couple of the on line reviews and it sounds like a good read.

As for what I am looking for, I am not really sure. What I see in Christianity right now, I definitely want nothing to do with. But maybe what Jesus taught was really something quite different. The trouble is, how do you get down to what he really taught. For example, how do we know what the NT claims he said was actually said (or that it was said as it was written) or that it actually means what we think it means?

As I start to dig into this stuff, there are many valid questions and concerns regarding the origins and provenance of the documentation we base our faith on. The same God (who I DO believe in, BTW) who built the 3.5 billion letter sequence genome seems to have left us with a rather questionable paper trail back to the origins of the faith. I know ultimately at some point you just have to "believe" but it seems that the more you look, the more "believing" is required.

This is not the Walk or JRS's fault, it is just my own scientific nature. I asked too many questions even when I was in The Walk.

Jewel

Much to the chagrin of ChangedAgain, we’ve wandered deep into the minefield of ‘bibscho’ (biblical scholarship) one more time.

This is truly a big-picture problem, far exceeding the parameters of JRS and TLW, but does illustrate the disparity between the simple message of ‘LOVE GOD, LOVE your Brother’, and the current monstrosity known as Christianity. But Christianity in any form could not be what it is if it were not for the Bible. There is no escaping it. The question we continually face is does the Bible represent the teachings of Christ, pure and simple? If it does, how could it then justify the horrendously unLOVING movements that have been built upon it, TLW included?

JRS was a dedicated Bible-man, lock, stock and barrel--he was probably buried with one (totally unconfirmed). The entire paradigm he operated under (aside from an insatiable appetite for the occult--apparently justified by a ‘know your enemy’ position) was the Bible and whatever flavor-of-the-month Christianity happened to be rolling through town. It is not surprising that all the ongoing deficiencies endemic within Christianity would find their way into TLW. We just happened to enjoy our own unique ‘branding’ of the problems.

I have sat around the table many times in the last couple of years with local ex-pats as they recount the injustices perpetrated upon them, only to go one by one and ‘scripturally justify’ every single infraction. Each instance points back to some chapter and verse, which speaks volumes about the book.

This most recent discussion highlights this conflict. There are those who may still have a death-grip on the Bible with the hopes of trying to reverse-engineer why things have gone so horribly wrong, and those who have already chucked it into the fire. Each will have to follow their own breadcrumb trail, but any honest inquiry that delves into early church history and Bible formation is going to have many naive paradigms shaken to the core.

There is a lot of chaff to separate from the wheat.

The thing that I a discovering is that much of the time, I am speaking conservatively, but MUCH, TOO MUCH of the time the guy preaching is twisting the scriptures, very craftily, with a hypnotic, booming voice, like JRS, twisting the scriptures to suit their own agenda. I have discovered that it is not the bible that is at fault, it is the fault of the motivational speaker/preacher that is at fault.

Again I will turn your attention to some of the "words" that Bro Stevens gave, if you listen to them again, there is one of those "words" in a Living Word website where Stevens explains quite skillfully why "the Living Word" meaning John Robert Stevens word is actually GOD's exact words. If you listen to it now, considering what happened, you will see how he probably even deceived himself. This guy could really talk.

That's the way it is all over Christendom. I have heard several big money preachers on TBN say that Luke was Jesus's personal physician. And they get away with it.

AD:

The problem far exceeds any persuasive televangelist.

The simple doctrine of ‘spreading the gospel to the ends of the earth’ has seen the subjugation of entire indigenous peoples on almost every continent, under the misguided pretext that the manner (and consequences) of dissemination mattered not as long as the ‘gospel’ was delivered.

The world is still suffering the results of all that ‘good news’.