FCSLC:

To quote you elegantly: “The true freedom of the gospel does not lend itself well to the enrichment of the few at the expense of the many.”

Back in the JRS era, when the ‘Paul/Timothy’ program took hold in the mid-70’s, it was intended to be a ‘mentoring’ relationship, whereby the ‘more mature’ one would mentor the ‘less mature’ one, hopefully into ‘maturity’. To JRS’ credit, when many would seek out a ‘word from God’ from him, he would often respond with ‘What has God shown/spoken to you?’

This ‘interdependency’ unfortunately morphed into the ‘designated relationship’ phase of the G&M era, where it was understood that we all needed someone to tell us ‘no’. This was a significant downgrade, whereby ‘designated relationships’ were established all over the fellowship to any and all who wished to ‘participate’. The abuses were myriad. Those who had no business ‘shepherding/mentoring/directing’ anyone were put in charge of lives they had no capacity to assist on any level.

This went on for decades in various iterations (myself being a willing participant from the late 80’s to well into the 2000’s). The biggest travesty of this ‘program’ was the culture of perpetual-dependency that it fostered, as well as the complete dissociation from the STILL SMALL VOICE that speaks to each of us. Instead of creating a culture to nurture the hearing of that VOICE, we were ‘redirected’ to follow the voice of our ‘designated relationship’, someone who probably couldn’t even hear the VOICE themselves, and certainly not for us.

The TRUE FREEDOM of the GOSPEL, not only does not foster religion-building on any level, but instead, sets a level ‘playing field’ for all to return to the RELATIONSHIP that CREATED us in the first place. LOVE begat LOVE, and thus we came into BEING.

kBOY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is encouraging anecdotal evidence on a number of
> fronts that indicate there might be more than a
> few who may finally take a drink of sobriety and
> reconsider their annual commitment. The extensive
> collateral damage done to so many, both current
> and ex-pats, may finally reach enough critical
> mass that we see the significant exodus we have
> all hoped for.
>
> We WELCOME them with open arms.


________________________________________________

kBoy, I appreciate your posts too. Do you have a guestimate as to the current number of members in TLWF?

LILY ROSE:


In response to your request for a ‘guestimate’ of the fellowship population, it must be remembered that those numbers reflect the three specific categories I mentioned in a previous post: 1) diehard hierarchy, 2) faithful little-people, and, 3) fence-sitters. With that in mind, probably the best-case scenario would be during any of the feasts. The worst-case scenario would be all other times.

The list of churches represented on the TLW website and a low-high ‘guestimate’ of attendees would be as follows:

CLW-North Hills, CA 200-300
COHK-San Diego, CA 75-125
TLC-Palmer Lake, CO 100-150
GC-Honolulu, HI 75-125
HONKC-Maui, HI 75-125
Shiloh, IA 100-150
GC-Rockville, MD 25-50
GPCC-Grants Pass, OR 75-125
TLW-Niteroi, BRAZIL 200-300


There are a few outlying ‘churches’ in various areas that are little more than home-meetings that could be thrown in for good measure, but do not add up to much as far as numbers go. PLEASE do not quote the numbers above as being ‘accurate’, but they are probably within a 25% margin-of-error in either direction.

I never would have played any of that designated relationship stuff. If I had not left just by looking at and listening to Marilyn during that set of meetings when John died, I would have been booted out and quit at the same time as soon as that started. But then, that would not have even happened in the South. We have too much rebel in us, always have had, always will have. '

In the Living Word west coast branch, rebellion was considered the worst of sins, because they twisted the scripture that said "rebellion is as witchcraft," I think that is the scripture, someone correct me if I am wrong. However, that scripture is referring to rebellion against God, not rebellion against some punk with a title. For some reason they strained at the gnat of "rebellion" and swallowed the camel of idolatry, man worship, and even blasphemy, when they sought John's spirit instead of the Holy Spirit, and they bowed down and worshiped john and later Marilyn, and they rejected Christ and insulted Him when they declared anyone out there "Christ in the Earth," because that is exactly the same as claiming to be THE CHRIST.

I was not even in the Walk, ever, the Southern churches were never that way. Most of the "shepherds" were drunks and heads, but for the most part we didn't get into all that. Now there was one guy that had a "kingdom business" which amounted to slavery, but this guy would have done that if he never had heard of the Walk. He was strongly rebuked for it too by one guy that stood up in the church and challenged him on that. There was another guy that kept pulling the "spiritual wife" thing but he was stongly rebuked too right in the middle of the service, and a total mutiny happened. See, there is a difference in the people here.

AD:


I had the great ‘fortune’ of missing the JRS-transition meetings that took place, but I did hear things from others I was in contact with at the time.

The JRS-days did not see the ‘oneness=agreement’ dynamic with such a rigid outlook, especially in light of so many outlying churches being pastored by those who had started the church themselves, but the G&M era solidified that thinking lockstep: ‘oneness=agreement’. Disagreement on any level was viewed as a ‘pure atmosphere’ pollutant that was exorcised quickly, with many finding themselves on the outskirts rather quickly. This reinforced the fear-factor on a whole other level, where shunning became the acceptable norm.

Interestingly enough, there has been a recent softening of the lines in certain areas between the ‘faithful’ and the ex-pats, where there are more cordial exchanges in social gatherings than there have been for years. As we progress in age, I think there is the realization that the KINGDOM IS RELATIONSHIPS, regardless of doctrine, and after such an investment, the Little People are becoming not-so-quick to throw others overboard as was done in the past.

Encouraging signs for the days ahead . . . :)

kBOY wrote in part: “The JRS-days did not see the ‘oneness=agreement’ dynamic with such a rigid outlook, especially in light of so many outlying churches being pastored by those who had started the church themselves, but the G&M era solidified that thinking lockstep: ‘oneness=agreement’. Disagreement on any level was viewed as a ‘pure atmosphere’ pollutant that was exorcised quickly, with many finding themselves on the outskirts rather quickly. This reinforced the fear-factor on a whole other level, where shunning became the acceptable norm.”

----------------------

Wow. A no win situation for serious Bible students.

The only thing I know about the South is what John said in Word one time...that the people always use the N word in conversation.


Apostle Dog Wrote:
> I would have been booted out and quit at the same time as soon as
> that started. But then, that would not have even
> happened in the South. We have too much rebel in
> us, always have had, always will have. '

I wonder how those numbers compare to the number of members before the divorce and marriage to Marilyn, because I heard some were lost at that time. I believe the heyday of the whole thing was the mid to late seventies. I wonder how many were lost that could be directly attributed to the dynamic duo, Gary and Marilyn.

You know, I think JRS was in fact a nut case, but I don't think he was pure evil at all. I hope he realized before he died what he put up in charge, because, as I said before, whether there was an intentional commissioning or not before he died, he is the one that put them in that place, and I have to say that I hope he knew it before he kicked the bucket.

I hope Marilyn didn't bust hell wide open.

AD:

Two things are pretty clear: 1) JRS did not bring down ‘the devil behind every fire hydrant’, and, 2) Marilyn could only open up the gates of her own ‘hell’.

Regarding the ‘numbers’ game, I do not recall any great exodus over the John & Marilyn nuptials, but I will say that the ‘spiritual heyday’ for us was the 2+ years surrounding the Unfolding/Unwrapping time that came in Hawaii in 1981-82.

This was probably the funnest and freest time we ever experienced in LA, with unscripted gatherings that went on for hours with little structure, and carried the tone of just ‘sitting on the beach’ revelling in the Word with no one really ‘running the show’.

It was because of this atmosphere that ‘hordes’ of folks from the outlying churches would come into LA on the weekends, so much so that, with relocations being a part of that dynamic, eventually, ones were ‘sent out’ to plug up the holes. We happened to be sent ‘far & wide’ and were thus absent for the passing of JRS. Shortly thereafter, it seemed like all hell broke loose across the landscape.

I don’t see this transition to be quite as volatile, but there will be some shaking out that is inevitable. Since LOVE has never been the bottom-line of the fellowship, it could get pretty ugly between those with a lot at stake.

The GOOD NEWS is, that in the end, we all come to our senses, and find our WAY HOME. (Prodigal Parable)

I so really mean that I hope Marilyn did repent. I know that Jesus took it very personally when Saul was persecuting His people, He said to Saul on the road to Damascus, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting ME?" Saul of course had never persecuted Jesus Himself, but Jesus took it that personally that Saul was wounding and killing and imprisoning His sheep. Same thing happens when Jesus says on the day of judgement, "you did not visit ME in prison, you did not cloth ME when I was naked, I was thirsty and you did not give ME drink." He said "In as much as you do have done this to these, you have done it to ME."

Gary and Marilyn Hargrave did indeed injure Christ's sheep, and in doing so they did it to Christ Himself. I hope Gary Hargrave in some way reads this, because it could be his salvation, to realize before it is too late. I hope Marilyn did realize it before it was too late. That is why I had that unction to pray for her.