lily rose wrote: If you are interested and have some time, the following read is long but the insights are something else: Goggle Apostasy The Latter Rain Heresy, then click Full text of "Anointing or Apostasy? The Latter Rain." The website is [archive.org]

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I’ve been reading for hours; about half way through it as of this post. I think it’s great. Talk about blasting away at the “one-sided” perspective we were indoctrinated into. I distinctly remember a message given by Mel Bailey on how all the “hash” has been mixed together concerning meeting the Lord in the air ------- well, this is better than Mel’s message and more clear. (I love contradictions)

Thanks again, lily rose ------- just starting the “heavy handed shepherding part where it’s practically an ‘unforgivable sin’ for sheep to think for themselves” ------- can’t wait to get into it.

IMO John Stevens was a man who was seeking truth just like we are. And we let John seek the truth for us and we went to 1000's of services, to hear what John was speaking, teaching and preaching . During those years - we went to where John was, to learn from John.

The history of where John attended services , preached or taught, whether he left or whether he was kicked out of any of the churches because of this or because of that - does it really matter? John is not here to speak for himself. And every man of the cloth has opinions about other men of the cloth - and they can only prove to themselves what they will believe or not believe about God or about one another's beliefs - what makes them authorities, they too are just men deciding on what they believe for themselves.

One of the brothers and former member said to me, ( ".....John is to be loved and remembered but not canonized by anyone.")
definition canonized -when you canonize a person you put him on a pedestal - in other words you think he is so wonderful that he can do no wrong.

Imo - John Stevens is not here - but we are still here - speaking about what we experienced as former members of one specific church And we are pointing out the things that should not be going on in any church. And as you know - the members are not allowed to relate to us in the things we speak about, because those who are in charge of the members minds will not allow them to consider there is any thing really wrong with their relationship with the ministry or with each other as members of TLWF. They have bound themselves together in being loyal to believe and support only what they are told to believe by the ministry. They have built a wall around themselves to keep themselves safe in what they are believing but at the same time that wall keeps out any truth from being able to enter their thinking.

IMO We can do nothing to deliver them from the pending jeopardy they are living in. for each one of them, can only deliver their own self. Because they insist on believing what they believe and to hear only what they are told to think and believe.

IMO John Stevens was a man who was seeking truth just like we are. And we let John seek the truth for us and we went to 1000's of services, to hear what John was speaking, teaching and preaching . During those years - we went to where John was, to learn from John.

The history of where John attended services , preached or taught, whether he left or whether he was kicked out of any of the churches because of this or because of that - does it really matter? John is not here to speak for himself. And every man of the cloth has opinions about other men of the cloth - and they can only prove to themselves what they will believe or not believe about God or about one another's beliefs - what makes them authorities, they too are just men deciding on what they believe for themselves.

One of the brothers and former member said to me, ( ".....John is to be loved and remembered but not canonized by anyone.")
definition canonized -when you canonize a person you put him on a pedestal - in other words you think he is so wonderful that he can do no wrong.

Imo - John Stevens is not here - but we are still here - speaking about what we experienced as former members of one specific church And we are pointing out the things that should not be going on in any church. And as you know - the members are not allowed to relate to us in the things we speak about, because those who are in charge of the members minds will not allow them to consider there is any thing really wrong with their relationship with the ministry or with each other as members of TLWF. They have bound themselves together in being loyal to believe and support only what they are told to believe by the ministry. They have built a wall around themselves to keep themselves safe in what they are believing but at the same time that wall keeps out any truth from being able to enter their thinking.

IMO We can do nothing to deliver them from the pending jeopardy they are living in. for each one of them, can only deliver their own self, because they insist on believing what they believe and to hear only what they are told to think and believe.

Sorry about that - duplication - don't know if it was a computer glitch or a senior moment.

Invisible Wrote:
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>
>
> The history of where John attended services ,
> preached or taught, whether he left or whether he
> was kicked out of any of the churches because of
> this or because of that - does it really matter?
> John is not here to speak for himself.
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I think it does matter. Invisible I truly respect and honor your point of view. There is wisdom in your posts that has taught me to try to examine what happened with less harshness and more forgiveness. When I joined this forum I was still angry. I think I am now less angry and more forgiving. But, if John were here to speak for himself could we even ask him the tough questions? I'm not so sure we could because it would have been viewed as having a critical spirit. I realize some still believe in John's vision and some who set directly under John's ministry maybe had a cushy experience. Many were saved and delivered from horrible bondages. But not everyone had a cushy experience because of some of the doctrine John believed and tactics he implemented in his church. I have been trying to sort out what sent me in a tail spin and I am now able to say I don't have faith in what John believed that was latter rain or manifest sons of God teaching. Reading the posts and commentaries of other Christians on this subject (even if it is not pretty) has helped to see that John was not infallible, all knowing, or Christ and some of what he taught us caused damage. I forgive him for that. Also, some of posts on this forum from those who were born into the CLW or LWF seem to indicate that they left the church unscathed. I truly believe that for your family.

I'm with you Lily. At the risk of being rebuked for questioning JRS, I still think he took credit for The First Principles as his own new light. But when you research it further, it appears to be material from other sources. I think we were conned a bit. I believe John had a true gift from God, but like many, the power proved too strong of a drug for him to resist. Personally, I have no interest in John's teaching anymore. It has done enough damage to me personally.

paleface Wrote:
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> I believe John had a true gift from
> God, but like many, the power proved too strong of
> a drug for him to resist. Personally, I have no
> interest in John's teaching anymore. It has done
> enough damage to me personally.

The visitation of Christ that John had allegedly had very early in his ministry...when he claimed that God had told him he considered killing him for his "withdrawal," established, I think, an underpinning fear in the fellowship of what might happen to members should they become "disobedient." I lived under that, as I suspect many did. Receiving the occasional death threat from from "men of God" when I dared challenge whatever I was supposed to agree to at the time, served to reinforce it. By nature I tend to be a bit chipper, but most of that was removed by my TLWF experience. The place is most definitely a cult, so trying to figure out how much of God might have been in John, or in Gary and Marilyn, is something I don't spend much time doing. I would rather research the altruistic acts of Donald Sterling.

I remember that fear well. I also recall hearing LW pastors say over the pulpit about a member that had left the fellowship, "He was delivered over to the destruction of his flesh, in order to save his spirit."

That was a LW death curse.

Larry Bobo in past posts discussed the circumstances surrounding the suicide of Mike Wood. I used to think that I would be yapping about that in heaven making sure those who may have been responsible were held accountable. Now I realize that won't be my role in heaven. There were be justice for Mike; I trust God for that.

The reason I posted writing - ( the history of where John attended services , preached or taught, whether he left or whether he was kicked out of any of the churches because of this or because of that - does it really matter? John is not here to speak for himself, ) what I wrote was not to rebuke ( to correct ) to take away from what Lily Rose posted. that she was glad to be finding for herself and sharing what she was reading that was written by those who are critics of the walk and John Robert Stevens. I was not writing what I wrote, to support or to promote what John taught .

We also have done the same, experienced the same in some ways as did John, and we too have those who are our critic's.

Some time ago I researched the critics who were writing these things to see more about what they believed and to see what organizations they were involved with , what they were promoting . I found some interesting reads.

I think we are all - in part critics - making choices about what we believe or do not believe.

What I was trying to express was 2 things, actually 3 things but I didn't do well in expressing those things in what I wrote, but I do thank you for reacting and for expressing and sharing your thoughts in all of what you have written as a response not only to what I wrote but to everything that is being written.

If we are fearful yet to day, let our fear be in conscience toward God - that we may do no harm ourselves to one another. That is the fear I believe we do have in talking with one another - in discussing what we discuss here..

I am only sharing what I have found or have realized in what I believe ( in part ) to be ( of a truth ) . and you have every right to disagree with me and to express what ( you ) believe to be the truth. This I am thankful for and appreciate having, with all who are here - who are also seeking, to know truth. We all are bringing something to the table.

One of the things I was trying to express was the reality - that we can not ask John directly any of the questions that we may have today. These questions were not in us back then - because we were learning many things thru what John was teaching and preaching Back then we had not lived long enough or experienced enough in life or learned enough to be able to question the things we were being taught. Now it is too late to ask John anything or to question him about what he was teaching in light of what we have come to realize. We have to now find those answers for ourselves, if we want to.

When Lily Rose spoke of heaven and what her role in heaven would not be, for me it began to rain and when she expressed that God is both just and justifier, my soul was made glad. Glad in hearing this good thing.