I think the point in bringing up drinking alcohol by the leadership of TLWF still is indicative of a deeper problem. Whether you are drunk or not, why do you want to take the place of God in the lives of others? When you secretly know that God is not really in control in your own life, it breeds a deep insecurity that makes you want to control others. When you truly surrender to Him, you stop wanting to control others – that’s His job, not yours. I also noticed as I dried out from my time in TLWF (30+ years) the need for alcohol to cope with life diminished. I still drink an occasional beer or glass of wine, but not for the same reason. I no longer need a six-pack to cope with the “spiritual warfare”. Much of what was branded warfare was nothing more than unhealthy living or disobedience to God’s commands and then having to live in the consequences.

Prophesying judgment and death on those who do not share your doctrinal views is not exactly what Jesus had in mind when he said to “Love your enemies”. What you send out comes back. Martha lived and John died. You can’t be fearful to look at the fruit, no matter how great your imagination of inflated self is or how detached you become from reality. I would suggest that if you cannot cope with everyday life without crutches, you are not really being empowered by the Holy Spirit anyway – just your old nature. Even people in the world manage to get rid of a few crutches without God. It was quite liberating for me to find out Satan was not running up my credit card debt. At least I was finally able to correct the real problem - me. Otherwise, I would still be prophesying judgment to this day and nothing would have changed.

Actually, much of my “warfare” was simply spiritual abuse by the leadership. There was the never- ending search by those pretending to be God, to find creative ways to “cross up my old nature”. The result was a pretty miserable life – and they had no power to change me, just keep me condemned, so the cycle never ended. I used to think it would be nice to just be a guest – at least the leadership would say “Hi”, and I would not have to do all this work for the privilege of being “disciplined”. It also would have been nice to have spent more time with my family. Instead, I spent numerous hours listening to sermons about my need to have relationships, but I had no time to actually have relationships because I was too busy sitting in church listening to sermons about my need for relationships. A vicious cycle. :) Because I was an easy going guy, my designated relationships were often with those others could not handle – not genuine friendships but more “warfare”.

larry bobo Wrote:
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> When you truly surrender to Him, you stop
> wanting to control others – that’s His job,
> not yours. You can’t be fearful to
> look at the fruit, no matter how great your
> imagination of inflated self is or how detached
> you become from reality.
>
-------------------

A few years ago I ran into an old friend who began drinking heavily after he had been given a word from John to marry a woman he never loved. The marriage ended in divorce and my friend was stuck and angry at God, then later he blamed John saying that John went way beyond his pay grade in arranging marriages. It seemed many of the arranged marriages didn't survive and the collateral damage was huge. What was that all about? In 1980, Barbie, a woman from the Blix complex was given a word to marry a man from Hiku who didn't have a witness. There were a lot of tears. Some were saying that John was in a "creative period" but it seemed more like "extreme control and manipulation." That's part of John's legacy so it doesn't surprise me that when G&M took over the "control" increased. If anyone has a different take on this I'm listening.

What came to mind in reading your post Lily Rose was the musical ( Fiddler On The Roof ) . with the theme song ( Matchmaker make me a match.) Interesting article on the net by Suzanne Zettel. Shadchan: Rise of the Jewish match maker.

The article gives a brief history and information about this topic of matchmaking.

John certainly exposed us to a lot of different ideas - the one thing that the Jewish community had was a far deeper commitment and regard for marriage than we did as a community of believers.

Matchmakers were and still are for some groups - an appreciated / for others a controversial ministry and exists in some sects of Jewish life today adapted for the times. With a little research I would not be surprised if we do not find match making to be a bigger part of many different related religious groups of people.

Arranged marriages to the extreme - still goes on - where daughters and sons have no choice in the matter - it is expected of them. Guess there is nothing new under the sun - things like this have been going on for 1000's of years.

My take is we have to each sort it out for ourselves. The one thing we have going for us - is we have the freedom to discuss the many things we have experienced for ourselves while living as a community of believers - and we still have a free will - just as we did back then - to say yes - or no - but having come to the place where we actually realize we do have a free will ( valuing our free will ) and now also realizing we have the freedom to exercise it, which many do not yet have. We also have this - that we thought we knew something but we found we didn't know as we ought to know - so we are better prepared to learn and grow - once we are able to get past the painful lessons - when we have learned from our experiences what we had need to know - hopefully to make better choices.

paleface Wrote:
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> That is an interesting phone call you got.
> Unfortunately, orders for couples to divorce
> happens often. I've heard from Walk leaders that
> the theory behind this is this: If a couple are
> looking like they might leave the fellowship
> together, it is best to split them up if there is
> a chance to retain one of them. It is better if
> one of them continues to stay in the group than
> for both of them to leave as a couple. It is all
> done as a move to correct the "unequal yoke".
> This theory is also applies to families where kids
> are separated from parents. Also, with couples,
> whichever spouse is the most loyal to the
> leadership (esp. Marilyn) that person is made "the
> authority" over the marriage and family. Loyalty
> to Marilyn trumps everything. In fact loyalty to
> G&M covers a multitude of sins.

Thank you Invisible for your insights (I am enriched) and thank you to all in this community for the mutual edification. There is no choke hold on us; we're not being silenced by a man made hierarchy.

lili rose wrote: “Thank you Invisible for your insights (I am enriched) and thank you to all in this community for the mutual edification. There is no choke hold on us; we're not being silenced by a man made hierarchy.”

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No choke hold -------- great terminology.

OK ----- for me the gospels could be renamed “Jesus versus the Extreme Controllers and Manipulators.” ----- There was plenty of contention and verbal banter going on especially on Sabbath days between Him and the “leadership/overseeing ministries.”

I intend to fight for freedom on all fronts for the rest of my life. Jesus fought, the oppressed & captives are still fighting and those who got a good dose of neither freedom nor choice in the “Walk” should wake up and start fighting also.

Some good lyrics come to mind:

Tom Petty ----------- “Everybody’s had to fight to be free” & “Everybody has to fight to be free”

Eric Burden ----------“It’s my life and I’ll do what I want. It’s my mind and I’ll think what I want. Show me I’m wrong.”



I know, there’s billions of sermons out there to the contrary, but why not go ahead?? ----------- It’s easier to get forgiveness than permission.”

Here is some thing for Gary and the ministry of TLWF - to think about and to consider, even to take to heart..
----------------------------

Gary on his website wrote on June 8, that he brought a word and Gary poses a question to the congregation saying -........ If we as the bride of Christ refuse to ready ourselves by continuing to live in the sin of division and Schisms, we must ask ourselves are we delaying Christ's return for His wedding celebration and feast? We must end division and become one ........
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I write to Gary this ( the body of Christ (IS) ONE. ) but has many individual members. And all of those members are needed. The body of Christ is already One. With all of it's many problems and needs but it is already ( One body) . A man can not make it ( one ) it is One.

And if there is division - something needs to be righted.
The answer is given by the apostle Paul in 1st Corinthians Chapter 12 - Paul says ( so that there may be no division )

The answer ( so that there may be no division in the body ) is found in the teaching of the apostle Paul - in the whole chapter of 1st Corinthians 12. Paul is teaching and speaking what he is speaking - so that they ( all of the many members of the body - will - all - realize and understand that they are ALL - to have the same care for one another.

1 Cor. 12:20 But now there are many members but one body and the eye ( can not ) say to the hand, " I have no need of you." or again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

According to the apostle Paul - if one part of the body says to another part of the body - I have no need of you - that part of the body - is none the less - still a part of the body of Christ even though that part of the body is not honored as a part of the body ( as it should) . .

Even if that member of the body is counted as not being a part of the body - it is a part of the body because the body while it has many members , the body IS One and because the body is One - it is not valid for any member to say to another member of the body, " I have no need of you." that one is no less a part of the body . This is also written and explained by the apostle Paul in 1st. Corinthians Chapter 12. .

We might all be reminded - that the "gift " which is best of all and most to be coveted - is the gift of love, apart from which all other gifts are worthless.

" For this Commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also." 1 John 4:21

There is a division that Christ came to bring that Jesus said would exist from now on.

Jesus said this - 1st Corinthians 12:51 & 57 Do you suppose I came to ( grant ) peace on the earth, I tell you no, but rather division ......
.......57 and why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right ?

Matthew 10:34-36 Do not think I came to bring peace on the earth, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

This ( division ) that Jesus came to bring - is not sin. His WORD is, " Why do you not on your own initiative judge what is right ?."

Invisible brought to light Luke 12:57 --- “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?”

------------------------------

I love these somewhat obscure verses that have very little cross-referencing. They seem obscure because they don’t truly support “top-down-group-think,” but instead support independent thinking for each individual.

It’s like, “What ----- I have permission to make some personal judgments???"

I can't imagine the devastation of being told by G&M, leave we have no need of you or congregants being told stay away from him/her.

David experienced the devastation of division in families; in Psalm 133 he likens unity to the precious oil upon the head running down. The oil (unity) begins at the head and flowed down; brotherly love descending from the head (leadership) to all parts of the body.

Gary has always been about division, rejection and intimidation. For him to continue bringing messages on oneness is beyond hypocritical.
Every day I am thankful that I am no longer subjected to that "ministry."