[[Edit above post: Letting bygones be bygones (the deep spiritual injustice) cannot be glibly white washed over by preaching. II Peter 2:3 hints of a boomerang principle remaining unsatisfied from the past that runs silently deep]]

I've noticed lately that the Living Word Fellowship has gone silent and in-ward. Active members have stopped talking to non-members as much. There must be a general gag order in place.

paleface Wrote:
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> I've noticed lately that the Living Word
> Fellowship has gone silent and in-ward. Active
> members have stopped talking to non-members as
> much. There must be a general gag order in place.

I wouldn't be surprised. Also, the ouster of someone as well-liked and respected as John Miller probably didn't help morale much.

Many, including myself have quoted Matthew 23:1-12, or parts of it, several times on this site. “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others. “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. (NIV)

The root of the problem is that we give to other humans the place reserved for Jesus alone. No matter how anointed a leader appears, Jesus taught us to only go to Him for our teaching – and all of us have lived in the consequences of not doing that. The word of the kingdom was paid for with Jesus’ blood. We simply have to receive it and He will begin to create a heart in us that can obey His words - which before was humanly impossible. It’s okay to read Jesus’ words for yourself and let the Holy Spirit bring alive what God is accomplishing in your personal life. Jesus told us to not settle for second hand information. Only He can give a divine nature – it’s not for sale via some hireling. It’s the hirelings that say you must go through them to get to God. Jesus called them thieves and robbers. It should give us so much hope to know that He wants to help us do what we are unable to do in our own strength, if we just let Him.

If any man has anything special from God, they are certainly not the source of it anyway – God is. I’m deeply troubled at the way people who have been connected to TLWF aimlessly wander in John’s absence. That certainly is not the mark of a true kingdom leader. They were not connected to God, but to John and some weird Eastern altered state of consciousness. You don’t have to “open your spirit and raise your vibration” to obey Jesus’ commands – they are very practical and earthy. BTW, God is doing just fine in the absence of these “leaders”. He always has and always will. It borders on blasphemy to say that He has limited his presence to the “Lamp of Israel” and may disappear if she leaves. You could never peddle that doctrine to other parts of the body that are not under her spell. That is why they have to lie about what they are really up to while pretending to be something else. It’s an obstacle to overcome, not to be destroyed by. The real kingdom is on the other side – if you keep walking. By God's grace, we can walk on.

Larry: I agree with what you are saying. I also thought of this. John the Apostle (the disciple whom Jesus loved) mistook an angel for Christ and bows down before him. The angel stops him and tells him to worship God instead. This is John, he knew Jesus well. Peter tells the crowd the man was healed by Christ's name, not by him. There are many more examples. My point is this; In each instance when man began to bow down or worship the figure in front of them they were redirected in their focus. I knew very few leaders in the walk willing to redirect peoples focus off JRS or themselves and onto the Lord. Ego can be a real bitch.

changedagain Wrote:
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> "Just because your pastor is drunk and abusive,
> does not mean God can not move through him. Get
> rid of your religious spirit!"
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In the 70's it was reported that the alcoholic Jackson Hole pastor never failed to minister to the females, "I'm sensing you have a contentious spirit." BTW I saw the actor Zach Levi on the Tony awards. Zach is the son of Susie and Daryl Pugh from the Southgate church in the late 70's-early 80's. They later divorced. I think Daryl left the fellowship but I'm not sure if Susie left.

John the Baptist came not eating or drinking, the Lord came eating and drinking - they said of Jesus He was a wine bibbler ( given to much drinking) and a glutton - and to His discredit those who thought of themselves as righteous - pointed this out - and on top of this they also complained that He kept company with and had fellowship with sinners.

In the N.T. there was also a complaint by one fellowship against another - God included in the church those lazy gluttonous Cretans who were not excluded by God, as being part of the body of believers - as the church. There was a correction in answer to the complaint - ( to show reverence and respect for the great sacrifice that was made for us ) they were to eat at home before they came together to partake of the communion of Christ and each man was to judge rightly the body and to judge himself rightly - so that God not need to scourge and chasten him - for in not judging rightly the body or himself ( judgment which is related to the shed blood of Christ and His body that was broken for us ) -for God scourges and chastens every son whom HE receives. But because we do not judge rightly - some of us are sick, some of us are a sleep .

One thing is for sure - the Word of the Lord came to the right place - for all of us along with many of those brothers who were pastors and elders - fell short of the glory of God. But this we have - Jesus is the high priest of our confession and lives forever interceding on our behalf with the Father.

Those who were set on destroying the reputation and good name of Jesus - used His eating and unbridled drinking with sinners as a means to try to discredit the truth He spoke - which they did not receive.

I would hope you do not think I am defending living the life of a drunkard. A drunkard does remain sober for long. To me being a drunkard is a way of living ones life.

The alcoholism I'm referencing was celebrated. If anything, there was an undue tolerance among those receiving bizarre ministry from the inebriated...people fearful of being labeled self-righteous or religious. I liken the situation to a question of professional competence...yes, some are fine doing difficult tasks while intoxicated, others greatly impaired. I would prefer people's lives being directed by a sober ministry...which doesn't mean I believe God can't move through through the inebriated. There is a personal bias here...since I witnessed a lot of bizarre ministry on a local level by a ministry, which I attribute to a license given at the time to be wasted....a perversion, I think, of scripture. Let's face it: some people, when drunk, tend to become more ego inflated and reckless than others, and someone innocent usually suffers as a result.
Anyway, I've made my point...time to have another shot of whiskey and drive my brats to soccer practice (kidding--they can find their own ride).

I can recall some of the most important, back-room, life-directing personal ministry I received from my local pastor where done while he was drunk. It made me wonder if it was really a word from the lord, or just a word from the bottle. And this was fairly recently too. A lot of the LA pastors and APCO guys have a serious drinking problem. My opinion: drinking was involved in the auto death of Dave Boney while down in Brazil. It is a running joke in CLW/North Hills how the musicians in the “pit” starting drinking during the worship service on a Sunday morning. No need to wait until noon. Might was well start at 9:30. I wonder if any people who are in recovery stumble from seeing this behavior by the church leaders. I recall one local church stated that about 75% of the problems they encountered in council sessions were alcohol related. I have no problem with social drinking in the homes, but I think there is a problem when the “in moderation” part of the situation gets laid aside or when the drinking permeates every church gathering.

But maybe they have to drink to try to silence the inner voice inside them that is saying how off the mark they have drifted.

Thank You, Good most sobering points made, very helpful clarifications - we are in agreement about the care we are to have and the responsibility we have, for one another. These things of concern, these troubling matters , you have spoken about today in kindness with genuine concern - are just as valid today - as they were valid many years ago,

1st Timothy 3:1-6
It is a trust worthy statement : if any man aspires to the office of overseer, It is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle ,peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity, (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?)

Here we can see what the scope of the ministry is about. The ministry is not about running one another lives in the way that the ministry came to control the lives of its members in TLWF..

In our generation - most of the men who were set into the church as ministries - ( were not yet aspiring to be overseers.) John brought to the attention of the church the men he believed should serve the church as ministries. And these men were set aside first and then later set into serving as a ministry - by the witness and agreement of all the members of the church.. John taught that until the church came into the same full mature stature - that Jesus Himself had in His relationship with the Father - until the church became mature - that God had given to the church, the help of the 5 fold gift ministry. And since the church was not yet mature - this gift for the church would remain as a gift for the church. And John was taking steps using the pattern of the early N.T. Church - to restore to the church the gift ministries, for the church.

Now - most of the men that were set in to the ministry back then - were the husband of one wife and they behaved in a manner that was above reproach - they were not addicted to wine. And over time - some of them, began coming together as friends -drinking on a regular basis with one another which became a part of their lives when they came together as brothers, as ministries - outside of church services - and some became addicted.

Not only addicted to alcohol but addicted to being with one another and they being away from their own families so much - they were neglecting caring for and being the husbands of their wives and fathers to their children - and - thinking what they were talking about together and the time they were spending with one another outside of their own homes, they believed that this was what was most important and while they were being stubborn, not having sound judgment, it was necessary for this to be brought to the attention of the ministry for the sake of their families and for the sake of the church they were elders and pastors for.

And when it was brought to the attention of John, as the overseeing ministry of the church - these certain ministries were given correction. They were to break their bonds with one another, they were told that they were acting like they were married to each other rather than being married to their own wives. And they were instructed to stop drinking together like this and they were to go home to their own wives and children after work and after church services.