larry bobo wrote on 02/08/14: 04:03pm: “TLWF went from a movement without leaders to one with more leaders than any movement I know of, especially with the implementation of designated relationships.

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Mark 10:42-43 --- “Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. But it is not this way among you.”

‘Not This Way’ among you.

John 17:23 --- "I in them, and Thou in Me."

Alan of Lille --- God is an intelligent sphere, whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere.

Voltaire --- God is a circle, whose center is everywhere and circumference nowhere.

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Are TLWF members and myself, the only people on earth who don’t understand? If Jesus and the Father are within us, then the center is within us. So many people understand and live their lives this way: philosophers, mystics, normal Christians and normal, well adjusted, intelligent humans.

I hate hierarchy. I’m beginning to realize all the scriptural teaching against it by Jesus.

Hierarchy takes the center from being within you and puts it elsewhere; in another person, in an institution, in a magnificent temple - (there’s one just down the street from me), in a leader, in a chain of command, in a bully, in that which is false.

We neglect that which is within, and end up yearning for a blessing from our bully leaders. We create our own ‘wasteland’ by having received a false word.

I’m guilty. There is much 'catching up’ to do. I will not be studying anything from JRS. No hierarchical teaching for me. No leaders, No leaders, break the spell, entrust yourself to the spirit words of Jesus and be centered and free.

I don’t believe we received “the truth” in the Walk. How else can a person explain the latter day, overall propensity to produce leaders upon leaders upon leaders; to produce “trickle down” blessings and “permissions” through the chain of command? It’s wrong. It crosses out the purpose of the Holy Spirit within us.

I don’t need some leader to tell me, “It’s Okay.” The Spirit Itself can do that, as well as much, much more.

Freaking cults, freaking hierarchies, freaking wrong focus, let it all pass away with the other garbage slated for extinction.

(Sorry, I still have much to “vomit up” from the past ---- thanks for this forum)

RE: Dangers of a spiritual hierarchy.

John Stevens once said, to the ministries in the hearing of all of the congregation -" If you could get control of all of the people and their lives and get them to do what you wanted them to do - you would not have the oneness that God is looking for. "

Seems John Steven's realized and understood that controlling people and controlling their lives, was not the will of God.

Tragically after John died - G&M - over the next several years after John's death, worked to get control of all of the ministry and to get control over their lives as ministries and then after G&M worked to get control of the lives of the members of the church, and if any ministry refused to do what they willed them to do by 1988 or 1989 , that ministry was publically vilified to the members of the church and excommunicated from the church as being rebellious against God and as being unfit for service as a ministry.

Bill Maybee, Bob Barton, and Dan Statton were Commissioned and set in as apostolic ministries by John Stevens and had been serving in the ministry for some years prior to John's death and they were among the first men after John's death to be publically excommunicated by Gary from the church as ministries and as members of the church .

The reason Gary gave publically to the members of the church - for excommunicating the first two men was that they were rebellious against God because they refused to obey Marilyn. Dan Statton was defrocked publically, as being rebellious against God because they wanted him to pastor a church in another state and he refused to move to that state, wishing to remain pastoring in the Ca. churches.

Even young children were voicing the report, that Dan Statton was being rebellious against God..

Any ministry who would not willing serve in the ministry as a yes man - was eliminated as being a ministry. And after Gary & Marilyn established themselves , as being the spiritual ruler over all the ministry - then the members of the church began suffering the same consequences as the ministry had suffered under Gary and Marilyn , who came to rule over the congregation and all their lives.

And the reason this is an important thing to point out is because after all these years later - in 2013 - John Miller who was also commissioned to serve as an apostolic ministry for the church - was excommunicated from the church as an apostolic ministry - for not mouthing what is to be mouthed by the will of those who are considered to be his spiritual higher ups - and all these years later G&M still live their lives to direct and to have control over the minds and the lives of the ministry and the members of the church.

The ministries of the church after John death had become no more, than a bunch of yes men and are still a bunch of yes men today. And If I remember correctly , which I do. John Steven's also voiced to the congregation that he was not grooming and bringing up the men in the ministry to be a bunch of yes men. Because if they were yes men - then they would not be able to know or to confirm what was or was not the will of God - when they came together to make decisions.

The Church Of The Living Word was founded by John Robert Stevens.

The Church Of The Living Word did not originate with Gary.. Gary did not commission or set John Robert Stevens in to the ministry, Gary has been building on the foundation that another man laid, but not building carefully. The church is not Gary's, nor does it belong to John Steven's, according to what is written in the Scriptures - the Church belongs to no man, it belongs to Christ.

Inside and with in the church men as ministries- are not free to disagree with one another, they have been convinced to believe that only Gary and Marilyn knows the will of God for them and their lives and what these ministries believe and are giving themselves to, is in direct opposition to what John Stevens taught.

As long as the members of the church put their head in the sand like the ostrich and as long as they cover their ears , their eyes and their mouths with their hands - like the three monkeys, they will continue to be yes men, and yes members and Gary will continue to believe it was given to him , to rule over the lives of the members of the church, because no one from with in the church - is allowed to seek God to know God's Will, concerning any of the controversial matters, spoken of - by those who have been put out of the church.

The posts are so informative, thanks to all. The more information, the more things become clarified, resulting in better judgment especially for me, the ‘slow’ learner.

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Invisible wrote: “Gary will continue to believe it was given to him, to rule over the lives of the members of the church.”

paleface wrote on 02/21/2014 1050pm: [What “holy spirit” are they listening to anyway?]

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The spirit that says it’s okay to buy and sell 'slaves and human lives’. Revelation 18:10-13. (NASB)

The reasoning ‘Helper’ I prefer to listen to deems the following: “Only our Creator has the right to rule as a tyrant, but finds ‘no pleasure’ ruling in this manner; our Creator ‘delights’ in friends who live as autonomous free agents. Our Creator enjoys being great, displaying the utmost Love and Godly Intelligence.”

Jan Ruysbroeck (a disciple of Meister Eckhart, a 14th century Christian mystic) wrote: “Though I have said before that we are one with God, yet now I will say that we must eternally remain other than God, and distinct from Him. And we must understand and feel both within us, if all is to be right with us.”

I like that. It's good clarification.

Put the petty, vindictive nature aside for a moment Gary--and do the right thing. Give Miller his pension. He earned it. It's rightfully his.

Gary and John Miller, for many years were relating to one another as being more than just being brothers in the faith - I think they at one time and for many years, were also good friends?

Most who hear sympathize with where John Millers has found himself in life & probably can't even imagine how Gary could not be moved to make sure that John Miller, is helped to be financially sustained with a pension since Gary no longer is going to be using John Millers services, as a ministry in the church.

After all the years of service that John Miller gave to living his life to serve Gary' as a ministry - to do Gary's will - which required of John Miller to sacrifice and to set aside all the years that John Miller would have had to build and make a financial provision for his own self and for his own family in life - having given more than those years of his strength in his youth - in service and now for Gary to be so calloused as to cast John Miller out of the church, knowing John Miller has no real financial provision, to help support himself is this transition is heart wrenching to hear .

Yet this difficulty or some form of tribulation may be experienced , by any member of the church or ministries in the church - when they put their trust in man and when they entrust their selves to man.

This is what I was talking about when I wrote about how we MISS PLACE our trust by putting our trust in man.

Jesus said no one is good but God alone. And it is written that Jesus entrusted Himself to no man because he knew what was in man and He did not have need for any man to teach Him, about what was in man.

And we also have the Word of the Prophets of Old who warned and made known that putting your trust is man was an accursed place to abide in - while also making known how blessed the man is, who puts his trust in God and whose trust is God.

This is not to say that a man can not be trusted - but crossing the line to put your trust IN a man is where we become vulnerable to experiencing what is in man.

Not putting your trust in man does not cause you to become miss trusting of every man - it does not cause you to be skeptical toward other people. When you come to know God's will - ( that you are to put your trust in God and you are not to entrust your own personal, spiritual and natural well being to other people) , you come to have a healthy sense of the real responsibility you really have your own self in living your life.

If we are really honest with our selves - no one forced any one to serve Gary in the ministry. Every person who is serving or has served Gary in the ministry - chose to serve or to give their lives and to live their lives' in serving Gary's will. All these men -still have free wills - because this is what God gave to all men. In reality they are really free even if they don't realize it because they can choose to do or not to do some one else's will.

John 7:17 Jesus said,
" If anyone is willing to do God's will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself."

And when these men who are serving as ministries in the church understand and come to realize that they have been relating wrongly to Gary their self by putting their trust in Gary and by having entrusted their self to Gary- if they are willing to God's will, they will recognize the truth when they hear it because they already know of the Teaching and in order to do God's will, they would have to put an end each their self - to relating to Gary wrongly, in order to put their trust in God.

Notice in what Jesus said in John 7:17 that Jesus in what He Spoke - is putting the responsibility for the decision to do God's will on the hearers of those He is speaking to., Jesus is not commanding the hearers., to do God's will. To do the will of God - is a matter of choice that God gives to every man. Men who are willing to do God's will - will already know of the Teaching and are able to recognize the truth when they hear it but it is up to each person to chose what they will do with the truth they are hearing.

Jesus was speaking and teaching God's Word - not speaking from Himself - in all that He spoke and taught the people. Those who were willing to do God's will - have the capacity with in them selves to recognize the truth when they hear it and to also recognize and know it was God's Word Jesus was speaking and know , that what Jesus was speaking did not originate with Jesus, because the Teaching already existed , and they ( those who are willing to do God's Will ) would know of the Teaching before He spoke the truth to them, that was in the teaching.

In the Latter Day Saint (Mormon) church, the clergy are not paid. It’s all volunteer time. That is why most of the hierarchy are independently well to do.

In the American Baptist Churches, a person usually attends a divinity school and gets a degree and then becomes a paid minister. His pension comes mainly from Social Security if the contributions were paid plus any supplemental savings accumulated along the way.

TLWF is a privately owned church. If it is incorporated then all the stock is controlled by just the top. (I do not know) TLWF’s corporate structure could be ‘not normal’ yet still legal.

If John Miller was a paid minister, there should have been matching contributions from himself and TLWF into the Social Security System.

There is the optional “Vow to Poverty” clause where a minister waives contributions into Social Security and thereby receives no payments at retirement age.

Sharing in the wealth accumulated by TLWF is most likely an arbitrary matter, with no binding legal requirements upon those in ownership/control.

There were so many in the past that “gave all in complete surrender” because in their thinking the Kingdom of God was coming in 1979 and money, possessions and retirement planning was “worldly” and about to be replaced. Remember the song by John Lennon, “Imagine”? It is still one of my favorites, bringing a tear to my eye and a remembrance of former ‘hippie’ days.

JRS was one of the ‘smart ones’. Somewhere on this forum or on the internet somebody stated he was worth 30 million or so. It must have been somewhat secret, since most members with any substantial possessions were constantly being harassed to prove their dedication/loyalty/submission by giving over control of their assets to the shepherds.

My dad, who is a Baptist, gave me this advice long ago: “Go ahead and believe, just don’t bank on it.” ------ Pretty good advice in hindsight.

I would add: “Keep it a secret also.”

Invisible wrote: "If we are really honest with our selves - no one forced any one to serve Gary in the ministry. Every person who is serving or has served Gary in the ministry - chose to serve or to give their lives and to live their lives' in serving Gary's will. All these men -still have free wills - because this is what God gave to all men. In reality they are really free even if they don't realize it because they can choose to do or not to do some one else's will."

I agree. The reason/excuse of staying in the walk to change it from the inside is one which is given by many who have left. Sounds noble, but I have come to believe that strategy is flawed and never works. I've always said one difference between myself and those who are still with tlwf is they have to do what gary/marylin say and I don't.

John 3:16," For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten son, so he who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life."

Here is gary's word: "God brought Christ to the earth as a baby so we can relate to the process He went through. He is the pattern for us to follow. Like Him, we are perfected by the things that we suffer. We have the right to become God’s darling children, and the power to become His sons. God is looking for those who are willing to be His voice in this generation." Christ-The Firstborn Of The Family December 22, 2013 — by Gary Hargrave

Now, which one would you believe and follow? The scripture is Christ centered. Gary words are well, just that, Gary's words. They put an emphasis on what "we" can do. His voice in this generation? Hebrews chapter one states the following: "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,..." Does he really think God, after speaking through Christ,is now "...looking for those who are willing to be His voice in this generation." Really? Where in scripture is it written, "God is looking for those who are willing to be His voice..."? I know He is looking for worshipers.

Seems to me if someone is to believe and follow the teachings of tlwf, they must first be a member of tlwf. Exactly like "Invisible" posted, "...chose to serve or to give their lives and to live their lives' in serving Gary's will." I really can't see why anyone could or would believe what is being preached from the pulpit. Christ came for everyone. It's my opinion gary preaches to just the ears of those in tlwf.

Thanks John Horning - for the G.H. quote -and for your sound judgment in light of the Word of God - which helps clearly show that Gary is still in some form preaching himself as Christ.

Matthew 24:26 Jesus warned of false christ's & false prophets.
Behold I have told you in advance. If therefore they ( say ) to you, Behold He is in the wilderness, do not go forth or Behold, He is in the inner rooms, do not believe them.
Jesus Christ clearly warned - that there would be others who would come after Him - claiming to be Him..

Jesus forewarned - warning that if any one ( says ) to you , that Christ is in the inner rooms, Jesus said, "Do not believe them."

That (Voice ) that says such things - Is Not the ( Voice ) of the Lord. Because any one who teaches or claims to be Jesus Christ in any shape or form including ( His Voice ) - they become an opposing (voice) against what Jesus forewarned men of.

It has become a private matter ( a hidden teaching and doctrine now ) among the members of TLWF because they have no way and no words to solidly and rationally explain their belief in Gary as being Jesus Christ come again in Gary and in believing in themselves as being the literal physical body of Christ, connected to Gary as the spiritual head over the church . So the members of TLWF can but spiritualize away the Word Of Jesus Christ to themselves , in order for them to continue playing Jesus on this earth - convincing themselves to believe things against which Jesus warned against.

Easy to understand, simple and clear and without any confusion is this that is written of Jesus,

There is only One Jesus Christ - there is only One Jesus who God named as His " Only Begotten Son " , who was given by God the Name of Jesus - just like there is only One God and Father. And The Scriptures make known that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven and that the heavens ( " must " contain Him ) until every knee is bowing and every tongue is confessing Jesus as Lord, to the glory of the Father.

They have become delusional.- having a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason.

They build one another up in to believing in their selves as being Christ, they magnify one another to themselves and in themselves as being Christ - but it is the Lord Jesus Christ who will come to be magnified and glorified in all them that believe in ( HIM. ) Not in believing in Gary and exalting Gary and themselves, on the throne of their own hearts, as if they were Christ..

Jesus warned them to " Save" them, from being miss led by those who would come after Him, claiming to be Him.

Thanks Invisible.

Invisible posted:
"...Easy to understand, simple and clear and without any confusion is this that is written of Jesus,..."

2 Corinthians 11:3 "...But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Invisible: "They build one another up in to believing in their selves as being Christ, they magnify one another to themselves and in themselves as being Christ..."

2 Corinthians 4:5 "You see, we don't go around preaching about ourselves. We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus' sake."

Invisible wrote: "There is only One Jesus Christ - there is only One Jesus who God named as His " Only Begotten Son " , who was given by God the Name of Jesus - just like there is only One God and Father. And The Scriptures make known that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven and that the heavens ( " must " contain Him ) until every knee is bowing and every tongue is confessing Jesus as Lord, to the glory of the Father."

Yes! Aren't you glad for that. Christ has set us free.

Great Posts Above: (True & Scary)

Invisible wrote: “They have become delusional. - having a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason.

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Repeat quote: ----- Jan Ruysbroeck (14th century Christian) ------“Though I have said before that we are one with God, yet now I will say that we must eternally remain other than God, and distinct from Him. And we must understand and feel both within us, if all is to be right with us.”

Anybody who doesn’t understand the “Self Evident” wisdom in the above quote is headed down the pathway of delusion.