paleface Wrote:
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In the Living
> Word, Gary and Marilyn certainly display bully
> type natures. And they collect similar people
> around them to be their hatchet men (and women).
> I've known certain people who were kind and gentle
> when they were just sheep in the church but became
> mean while serving G&M. Were they always closet
> bullies, or did "learning Marilyn's thinking" turn
> them into bullies? We'll never know for sure.
> Does the shepherding position in the LW attract
> those that enjoy being a bully to sheep? I think
> so. This certainly can't be the heart of God.

I received an email some time ago from a long-time member that expresses a similar theme.
It reads in part:

"The authority structure has been and will always be based on who provides the greatest lip service or financial benefit to the Lamp of Israel. Those who promote her are shepherd material. It's created cut-throat competition among the men to see who can claw their way into favor. Men who are assholes on a personal level can still have churches turned over to them."

Quote: Changed Again wrote:

experienced something similar, coincidentally after jokingly questioning my pastor's ability to steer the lives of the sheep while intoxicated, and once suggesting Rick might be benefiting from some favoritism. In my case, I was demoted from a shepherd (after serving seven years) to a set-aside elder. Furthermore, I was directed to turn pages for the pianist or organist during church services (six a week at the time), a role that lasted over a year. In addition, I was put in charge of all the maintenance of the church facility, which meant that much of my 'free time'--after services, running my own small business to support my family & helping raise a couple kids--was spent laboring on the facility and organizing/directing work groups. And if this wasn't enough, I was expected to work on other church facilities, along with the N. Hollywood home of the Hargraves and next-door rental--which I did. This was over a five year period.
My level of penance/commitment did eventually enable me to rise back to shepherd status, but by that time my enthusiasm for TLWF and everything it represented had severely waned. I knew my days were numbered. In spring of '97 I called it quits. About a year after I left I heard the church was sold. What happened to the proceeds of the sale? I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if it went into an account controlled by the Hargraves...in spite of the fact that they visited the church sparingly (3-4 days) during the years I was there.
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It is amazing to think about how many years it took us, to realize that we were being mistreated and in extreme cases even severely wronged and it took us years to see the truth about how many of the members, were being mistreated and how they mistreat one another and think that there is nothing wrong with what they do, to one another.

I mean it is not legally required for any person to go to church or to become a member of a church. So how do you think other people came to have such power over us and our life?

Why did we not know the difference between right and wrong - for so long? How could we watch other people - our members beng mistreated - and not allow our self to see what was really being done to them and to call it for what it really was - a subtle form of evil that wraps it's self in a cloak of righteousness and pretends to be, what it is not.

What causes us to make up our own reality and to turn away from what really is the truth ? To be blind to so many things. Did we become blind after we became members of the church or were we blind to begin with and came out with eyes that could see?

What an awakening I had about the Sale of the Southgate Church . People go to church and they get the idea that the church is theirs and the people can become deeply emotionally and mentally attached to this idea - thinking of the church as being theirs - but it really is owned by the people who sign their name on the dotted line, it belongs to the one who is legally responsible for paying the monthly mortgage payment to the lender, if the owner wishes to sell it - they can sell it or if they wish, they can continue to provide it as a place for the people to use to meet together . And if the owner chooses to sell it, when it's paid off, they can legally walk away with all of the profit, from the proceeds of the sale and in reality they have done nothing illegally wrong.

Now if the members were misled to believe that the proceeds from the Sale of the S.G property, were going to be used to buy another church building in a safe place for the people to meet together at - then shame on those who knew the truth and lied to their members,

“What causes us to make up our own reality and to turn away from what really is the truth? To be blind to so many things. Did we become blind after we became members of the church or were we blind to begin with and came out with eyes that could see?”

I think many of us were spiritually immature when we were introduced to TLWF and the controlling atmosphere only protracted that immaturity. I spent a couple of years in professional counseling (my only criteria was they could not be Christian) after leaving TLWF and the biggest personal revelation was that I was still emotionally a teenager running around in a 45 year old body. What I assumed made me more mature – submitting every detail of my life to an authority figure – actually made me more immature. I needed to be making my own decisions and learning from my successes and mistakes. I really do think I experienced more personal growth in the first couple of years after leaving TLWF than in the previous twenty.

It’s like a bubble pops after a certain period of time and you cannot believe how foolish you have been. Along the way, I think all of us had to willfully override warning signals that something was wrong. There really is a brain washing that takes place where the teaching of the leadership takes the place of the teaching of Jesus – and the whole time you are assuming they have unique insight into Jesus words. If you really do read Jesus’ words, there are many discrepancies.

If a spiritual leader in another church wanted to divorce his wife and marry his secretary, we would sense something was amiss. In TLWF, it was the beginning of “The Door Opener Apostle” and the “Lamp of Israel”. Most of us didn’t even bat an eye. If you happen to be Marilyn’s actual son, (not just in name only as long as you remain obedient) you can have several wives that initially started out as affairs - the possibility that it may be wrong is off most people’s radar in TLWF. I don’t say that as a personal attack, but just to say the teaching is contrary to the scriptures and the resulting fruit is evidence of that. There really is a deception that captivates your mind – within TLWF it is referred to as "revelation".

One thing that seems to help break the blindness is to have contact with other genuine Christians outside of TLWF. Although TLWF claims they are open to other parts of the Body, real relationships are almost non-existent except within the leadership where motives are questionable. While within the group, I was told the local city government looked favorably on us, yet after leaving and serving on a local Board, I discovered they thought we were a weird cult. The same was true for other local churches in the area. I think the most common comment I have heard from other Christians since leaving is, “Didn’t you have a Bible?” “Christ in the Flesh” controlling your life is appalling to other Christians – and especially when you start singing worship songs to “Him”.

The above posts are so enlightening. Thank You. This forum is great.

One of the first pamphlets I read after getting introduced to the “Walk” was “To be a Christian.” It was impressive and compelling.

My question is this: JRS, Gary & Marilyn did/are doing so well (wealth, honor, power, attitude), whereas so many dedicated others have been disappointed, ruined, crushed and disillusioned. Why the inequality in the light of that pamphlet?

And, should a ‘potential believer/truth seeker’ go to law school before making any rash commitments to God/Divinity?

I still love “To Be a Christian” and the direction John was headed initially. The Lordship of Jesus Christ is a wonderful thing and I believe it is the real door to the kingdom – not blind obedience to a human. Originally John said, ” My part as a Christian is not to find out the opinions of men, but to keep my eyes fixed on Christ, to let my mind dwell on Him, having a constant mental vision of His character; to make His life the food on which my soul shall live; to make His gospel the textbook and authority by which I stand or fall.” I love that – and it’s a safe way to view Christianity. When human opinions become the textbook, all we have to look forward to is falling - and somehow it's all God's fault.

The trouble started in TLWF when humans started taking the place of Jesus in other people’s lives. I’m not necessarily questioning motives for doing so, at least in some cases, because I think there were some good hearted leaders who genuinely wanted God’s will in everyone’s life – including their own. They just didn’t last very long in TLWF (or anywhere else for that matter) when they got crossways with those who wanted to play God and their motives were not that good. Maybe if these leaders had to submit to each other they would understand the havoc they are causing.

I would say again, there is a reason Jesus said call no man leader, teacher, or father. At some point, you have to decide who you are going to trust – Jesus, or some human that wants to take his place. The bad thing about humans is that they don’t have the power to enable others to walk out their “words from God” - that are really nothing more than their opinions. With a true word comes the supernatural grace or power to accomplish that word. With humans, it just leads to endless self-condemnation and no real fruit. After a while, you start to mistrust God because “He” is always saying things that “He” doesn’t do. Nothing strengthens your heart and deepens your relationship with Him like having God speak something to you and then miraculously bringing it to pass. Worship just naturally comes up out of your heart – just like when your favorite football team scores a touchdown.

It’s always fascinated me how the leaders of these various groups that hand out “words from God” will never submit to each other. I think they secretly know how much they are not words from God but rather just a good feeling they have about something. The genuine ministries are special gifts that are given to serve the body, not be overlords. Just like a natural father – you’ve done your job when your children can support themselves – not become dependent on you. It’s a weird insecurity that would even want such a thing. The best any of us can do for each other is to point one another to the true Creator who really does have transformational power and can give all of us hope .

Quote Invisible:

“What an awakening I had about the Sale of the Southgate Church . People go to church and they get the idea that the church is theirs and the people can become deeply emotionally and mentally attached to this idea - thinking of the church as being theirs - but it really is owned by the people who sign their name on the dotted line, it belongs to the one who is legally responsible for paying the monthly mortgage payment to the lender, if the owner wishes to sell it - they can sell it or if they wish, they can continue to provide it as a place for the people to use to meet together . And if the owner chooses to sell it, when it's paid off, they can legally walk away with all of the profit, from the proceeds of the sale and in reality they have done nothing illegally wrong.

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I believe I’m having the same awakening. My naivete, ignorance and inability to see things as they really are, is beginning to scare me.

It's not wise to get involved in a privately owned church. I remember when John died and things started going south that we were praying that God would right the ship. We had hope that the old Apostolic Company (Bill Arnold, Howard Klein, Vere Thomas, John Miller, Bill Mabey, R.D. Cronquist and all the other “heavies” in that group---I don’t know) would save it.

They didn’t stand a chance. The laws of the land (Romans 13) trump prayer, scriptural debate, tenure and reason. The owner can call the shots. The owners can remove whomever they want, preach whatever they want, subvert whomever they want and so on.

Owners can declare trespass against anybody who displeases them. Paying tithes affords no legal standing.

I shouldn’t complain. The owners can and are legally doing as they please, in addition to laughing all the way to the bank.

There is no such thing as being “vested” in a church, whether it is corporately or privately owned in my opinion. I suppose there could be ‘unionized’ churches.

Thank God there is a body of spiritual knowledge in the public domain: Bibles, Upanishads, Tao Te Ching, spiritual books and the internet-----access to six thousand plus years of teaching.

Thank God I got out of that church with enough assets to still have a roof over my head. Getting some dignity back is another story.

(Un-churched but still learning)

Re: Church

We were receiving something that we valued or we would not have put our money in the offering plate.We may have wanted what ever we were getting or giving toward, at that time in our lives to last forever, for all the days of our life. But that was not possible at sometime in our lives or we would still be there. We would never have left and if it were as it once was - no one would have put us out.

When I stopped going to the church - I owned nothing - when I came into the church I owned nothing - I came in when I was 17 almost 18 years old , and I really knew nothing about life and I needed every thing I received to be able to live a better way of living life than I had in living life out side the walls of the church, before I entered it's doors.

I went in with no formal education and I came out with no formal education but I was equipped to make a living and to be able to support myself.

I don't think of myself as being inferior or superior - I am what I am - I am who I am , nothing more and nothing less and I know that's O.K.

I know I don't know every thing I need to know , to recognize this doesn't make me feel bad about myself. No knowing is not a bad thing. you can't keep learning and growing up if you think you know every thing.

You may make more mistakes in living your life but there is room to make mistakes.- room that people make for each other because we all have been there and done that and if we didn't make room for each other - none of us would be able to get through life.

Invisible Wrote:
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> Around 1971 we began receiving phone calls at
> our home at any hour of the night - to pray for
> John Stevens, because he was under demonic
> spiritual attack by his wife Martha. We were told
> at that time, not to say anything to any one about
> this, because only certain one's were being
> contacted to pray for John, in this . And the
> idea was conveyed to us , that the church was not
> mature enough to handle the knowledge of the kind
> of assault that was taking place against John by
> his wife, in his own house.

"the church was not mature enough"--classic

Yes,

I was 24 years old - what did I know about life or relationships?

About 4 years after I stopped going to the church, when I was looking in the Scriptures, for answers how I should think about what was done to me and about what was still being done to me - which did not stop taking place because I stopped going to the church because my former spouse and my children were still active members of the church. And they were being told how to think and they were holding fast to the things that they were being led by others to think and to do which they were believing was the right thing for them to do. They led my children to turn their hearts away from me as one of their parents and to estrange themselves from me in life.

Now on the other hand what was done to me -when I was finding in the O.T. Scriptures the things that directly related to what I was experiencing - I realized how wrong my own thinking had been. Because when I beheld the righteousness of God in the law it shined it's light on me.

And as you pointed out in posting what I wrote changedagain, I also realized in searching for answers - that what had been done to Martha Stevens - I later experienced my self. And having experienced it myself first hand I knew the reality of the pain and suffering that the thinking we had held as being of God was not of God because I found in the Scriptures what was right according to the Word of God.

I also found in the Old Testament Scriptures that when a man sinned and he didn't know he had sinned - in the day the man became aware of his sin, he became responsible. So when I saw my own sin, in light of seeing what was right in the Scriptures, I set my own heart to try to never do again, what I now knew and understood was wrong.

And if it had not been for the foundation that was laid in my life concerning Christ, I could not have received for my self the grace that was provided for every one to , continuing growing up, in Christ and to go on living with out condemning my self. Grace and truth are realized in Christ Jesus. Acts 15.

One of the instructions the apostle's gave to the saints of the early church was to see to it that no one falls short of the Grace of God. This is the room I was talking about that we make for one another - Grace to grow and to become what we will be and are becoming. It does not yet appear what we will be but we know that when He comes , we will be like Him.

I do want to add that the relationship between my children and myself is being restored little by little after these 20 years whether active or no longer active, as members of the church, of which I am most thankful to the Lord for.