Quote: Paleface 10-08-13:

“And she was gloating about it, taking delight in watching someone struggle.”

…….Roman Colossium Spiritual Style…… who taught who?

Where is the everlasting God of transcending intelligence, fun, adventure, fantasy, uplift, mind blowing unknowns, open range, choice, unconditional acceptance and easy going personality? (The Dream)

Why was the god imparted to me in church always obsessed (heavy on obsessed) with rule, obedience, duty, control, sacrifices, requirements, conditional acceptance, submission, submission, submission and an ego looking to be offended for the purpose of meeting out disproportional punishment? (LW Brand)

The song in the movie Jesus Christ Superstar…….“Could We Start Again Please” ?? ……...no.

The Dream doesn’t exist in church. (Correct me if wrong)-----won’t make any difference though.

The more I read Sierra's post, the deeper the grieving goes. So many families hurt. So many lives trashed and so many years wasted by the spiritual abuse from the LW leadership.

Yes, the San Diego LW church under Bruce and Gilee Larson has become one sick, toxic place. A woman that used to be a member a long time ago recently passed away. She had been attending David Cokas's church in nearby Spring Valley. Many of the folks from the SD LW church knew her. She was a lovely sweet woman. Now we hear that the LW people were forbiden to attend the memorial service for this woman. The Larson's didn't want anyone going.

And yet somehow Gary Hargrave was recognized by Cambridge Who's Who for demonstrating 'dedication, leadership and excellence in spiritual development and education.'
Yeah right.
You'll know them by their fruits.

Sierra - Thanks so much for sharing your heart - I know it will be helpful to many. I so appreciate your honesty and openness. I trust God will use your testimony to help heal others and correct their course.

Along the same line, it's a very delicate matter to suggest Gary and Marilyn are not Christ in the flesh - especially to those still in the fellowship. Immediately, anyone questioning their authority becomes the personification of Satan trying to attack what God is doing. The scripture is no longer the plumb line - they are. I have contact through business with the Fundamental Mormon group (polygamists) headed by Warren Jeffs who is now in prison. They are going through a very similar dynamic as they come to realize he is not the prophet of God they once thought. As the deception has begun to be broken, the group has started to fall apart. Unfortunately, in their disillusionment they want nothing at all to do with God. In their case, the leader takes their multiple wives and kids and they become his. You can only imagine the heartache and confusion. Well, some of you have had families torn apart in TLWF and do know.

Jesus commanded us to love and pray for even our enemies - I believe we should be doing that for Gary and Marilyn as well. He also commanded us to call no man teacher, father, or leader - all of which we have been guilty of with them. It is destructive to them, and to those that follow them, to place them in a position where they take the place of God - "You shall have no other gods before Me" and "There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus". Jesus warned that in the last days many will come saying they are the Christ and not to believe them. It's a difficult journey to come to the place of accepting personal responsibility for making that mistake - it's much easier to blame someone else. The human body experiences pain to indicate there is a problem. We experience the same thing spiritually. Eventually, when there is enough pain, we hopefully will re-examine and correct our belief system so that it conforms back to the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus also commanded us to examine the fruit to know whether or not the tree was good or bad. Fruit does not happen overnight. In some cases it may take years - but there will be fruit. The fruit of TLWF is becoming more evident all the time - and it's not good fruit. I have heard so many stories just like Sierra's that would move godless peope to compassion. There is such a disconnect between the leadership of TLWF and the lives of the people it is supposed to be serving that the leadership almost seems oblivious to the damage that is being done. The wounding is discounted because those people are no longer in the fellowship and apparently their lives no longer have value. You might want to read Ezekiel 34 to see if God also thinks this is true. The truth is that the wounding occurred while they were still in the fellowship. They left to prevent further abuse.

Going back to the foundations of TLWF, many will remember the violent intercession of the 70's. If you have forgotten, it was just before the manifestation of the Kingdom in 1979 after all the world systems had collapsed and we barely escaped by our food and survival preparation skills we had perfected during Sunday AM services - :). I helped lead intercession over a number of years for a "free John and a dead Martha". My Dad was an associate pastor in Des Moines during that time and was so deeply wounded after being set out of the church for not going along with the praying for Martha's death thing popularized at Shiloh. After 35+ years, he still has not fully recovered from his wounds and it really has been a tragic waste of a wonderful man. In examining my own heart, I was parroting what I believe John wanted - I honestly did not want Martha dead. After all that "God directed" effort screaming at God and Satan until we were hoarse, John died and Martha was just fine. I would beg to differ that it was the result of the rebellion of John's sons that killed him. Perhaps it was cancer that killed him and the "word" that he would pull us into resurrection life if we were careful to obey his followers was never a real word from God in the first place - just something used to control us. I would suggest that we, like Jesus disciples, did not know what spirit we were of when we tried ineffectively to call down judgment on others. I have come to the conclusion that there was really only one that actually wanted Martha dead - Marilyn. She wanted no competition. The rest of us were just not that fond of Martha's music - an operatic style we had no appreciation for.

We witnessed many amazing things in John's life as he pursued the lordship of Jesus Christ (e.g. "To Be Christian"). As Marilyn slipped in to take the place of his wife, and then his God, much changed that was not good. After John's death, she did the same thing with Gary - taking the place of his wife and then his God - "If she goes to hell, I'm going with her" - words not very comforting to a follower. Many will remember the "ceremony" when many leaders from throughout TLWF "married" Marilyn and she took the place of preeminence over many other spouses as well. It was like trying to maintain a marriage while having an affair and as a result marriages crumbled all over TLWF while one spouse determined to pursue Marilyn at the expense of the other. Marilyn's name began to be used in the place of God's name in worship songs and we barely noticed or cared - scary in hindsight. I left in 1999.

When the spell (or "revelation" if you are still in TLWF) is broken, you are flabbergasted you could be so foolish. As I have talked with other Christians, the most common question I hear is "Didn't you have a Bible?". Of course I did. I viewed the Bible through the lens of John's teaching instead of viewing John's teaching (eventually with Marilyn's input) through the lens of the Bible. I remember John being upset when people did not bring their Bibles to services. Later, the living person became far more important than the "dead letter" and "God in the sky"of the Bible. That thinking has led to the pain and suffering experienced by many generations - we are certainly not the first - who eventually return to the written words of Jesus for true life. They are safe, work 100% of the time, and lack nothing. We just have to put them into action.

Larry Bobo.

Thanks for being so honest. I remember some of the things you mention in your post up until the grand “marriage ceremony to Marilyn” ---- I had left by then. I think Martha’s album was titled, “When God Speaks.”

That post by sierradawn is saddening. After the death of John and the ensuing power struggle here in SLC a family was torn apart: Mom & dad went to California into obscurity and a son went to Shilo. Long story short------the son didn’t go to his own mother’s funeral (I had a secret source). I don’t know if it was out of submission to a “word” or his choosing.

I witnessed and know of much injustice.

I didn’t want Martha to die.

I have never heard God’s voice in my life. Nothing vocal, no whacked out signs in the spirit or physical body either. There was a sense of blessing and awe in those lofty worship services. I was a worship junky-----I find myself humming some of the old songs after all these years. (crazy)

The best guide for my life has been the ‘Golden Rule’. The problem with church is that you end up going along with the majority in spite of your conscience that’s screaming, “This ain’t right----this is a violation of the Golden Rule.” I’m too much of a softy for a church like the LW.

I have a fear that’s called ‘Karma’.

Many “Spells” need to broken. Research can help. (Gnostics, 1st & 2nd Century Christianity, Constantine, Council of Nicea, Council of Trent, Upanishads, Taoism, Buddha, Zoroaster, Heraclitus, Logos, Philo, Reformation, Renaissance, Enlightenment, Self-Evident, Natural theology vs Revealed theology, William Branham, Branhamism) -------this stuff is on the internet and is not taught in most churches
.
Hope this is not boring. Sorry if it is. (We have the Warren Jeffs types running around here------knowledge is power and a good defense)

Edit above post: Change junky to junkie. sorry.

Quote
larry bobo
I have come to the conclusion that there was really only one that actually wanted Martha dead - Marilyn. She wanted no competition. The rest of us were just not that fond of Martha's music - an operatic style we had no appreciation for.

Good point. As much as I've disliked someone's musical taste, it has never led me (so far) to violently pray for their death.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2013 08:45PM by changedagain.

RE: Martha Steven's, was the wife of John's youth

In thinking on these things which have been written on this forum , about what was done to Martha and other married couples, I remembered the Scripture - that one is not to despise the wife of his youth and I found in Malachi , what I think is a good foundation in the Scriptures to support and make known - that what was done to Martha Stevens , was a terrible grievous thing and void of God's Spirit.

These kinds of things have happened before and long ago - I believe they are common to man and are happening to people today in their relationships with one another , to people in all walks of life.

For those who are seeking God to know Him and His mind in this day , these things Written - I believe were written about, for our own admonition, that we might know and not do, practicing , the same.

Malachi 2:15 This is another thing you do, you cover the altar of the Lord with tears, with weeping and with groaning , because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. Yet you say, " For what reason? " Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and wife by covenant. But not one has done so, who has a remnant of the Spirit. And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed to your spirit and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth.

Martha was the wife of John's youth. to deal treacherously against her or to allow others to deal treacherously against the wife of one's youth - is to not have even the ( smallest) part of Spirit ( Truth ) with in you. This is what Malachi said and he warned those he was saying this to - To take heed to their own spirit.

In remembering , this is how I first remember, - how things began to take place against Martha Steven's as John Steven's wife.

Around 1971 we began receiving phone calls at our home at any hour of the night - to pray for John Stevens, because he was under demonic spiritual attack by his wife Martha. We were told at that time, not to say anything to any one about this, because only certain one's were being contacted to pray for John, in this . And the idea was conveyed to us , that the church was not mature enough to handle the knowledge of the kind of assault that was taking place against John by his wife, in his own house.

I don't remember us being woken up more than about three or four times between 1 and 3 O'clock in the morning, over a period of a few months time. We were told that Martha was verbally attacking John. It was presented to us , as if Martha was being aggressively evil toward John and John was suffering . However we were never told what Martha was upset about. Nor did we think to ask, we were just concerned about the well being of John.

We thought of them as two separate people back then but I later learned and heard that the Lord said, when a man marries they are no longer two but are one, therefore let no one separate (tear apart) what God has joined together.

I do not know how many people were being contacted like this and for this purpose but it was conveyed to us, that there were others also being called - to pray and be a support for John against Martha. Every time John and Martha were having a major argument between them during that period of time, we were called - with a one sided story about what Martha was doing against John.

Evidently John and Martha , had problems in their relationship with one another but the real problem they had, I believe was, that other people were in their personal business and those people were at work, taking sides together and creating a support for John Steven's against his wife and they were taking steps to influence many other people against Martha, which worked to undermine the marriage and relationship John and Martha had as husband and wife.

Whether John invited them into his & Martha's personal life or whether they invited themselves into his & Martha's personal life, I don't know but one thing is for sure, he went along with the sympathy and the support he was receiving for himself , against his wife, from those who were closest to him, who were outside of his own family.

This kind of activity I believe , led to it later being said ( in secret ) that Martha was a Nephillim. Martha was the first person in the church to be condemned, as if she were a powerful demonic spirit and spiritual force set to destroy her husband in the privacy of their own home, as a man of God.

After the these first phone calls' we received in 1971 , and about 9 years later, in 1980, Martha divorced John.

And I heard many, many, years later that one of the Steven's family members had said, that Martha was still confessing her love for John, long after John had died , even until Martha died.

So in writing this I want to say that we both ourselves, as a husband and wife back in those times - lacked in having with in us - more than the lack of good judgment , we did not realize or discern how wrong - it was - for us, to become involved in any way - directly or indirectly , in what was taking place against Martha Steven's and John Steven's marriage, as husband and wife.

And today I am so sorry for what Martha suffered as John's wife. And I am so sorry for Martha and John's children and grand children, for the things they suffered as a result of any support given, toward John and Martha's marriage being torn apart by any of us - who even lent an ear or a heart, to harden our hearts against Martha as John's wife - for in such a thing as this - is lacking even a remnant of God's Spirit - in all these things, that took place against this family, in and at our church.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if people in the TLWF read here and hold in their memory what is Written - so that they won't do the same things themselves to their own wives or become a party with any one else in participating in any kind of treachery against any one else's spouse ?

Wouldn't it be wonderful for the whole church, if God opened their ears, to hear HIS WORD, in this matter ?

Whoa. The above posts are soul searching, embarrassing, the truth ----

And we were the answer the world was looking for -- (not).

Do you remember when certain ones wanted to write a letter/send a proclamation to the United States Government, demanding that it relinquish control to the Apostolic Company?

That was a little scary ---- maybe some jail time and an entry on the government’s subversive list for all the saints.

We were saints weren’t we? Yes, the very elect, confirmed by midnight phone call.

Church of the midnight phone call ----- who’s making the call? As Larry Bobo (post 10/10/2013) suggests, not God.

Didn't Martha outlive John by about 10 years? Maybe it was that old "boomerang principle" in action. I guess God ignored all that intercession to "kill the neph".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2013 02:02AM by paleface.